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Hatsu Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

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17 minutes ago, Morty said:

Just thinking about the physical comparison for rugby players and rikishi. It is not uncommon for players in contact sports (eg Union, League, American Football, AFL) to barely be able to walk for a few days after playing a game due to the physical punishment they receive, particularly at higher levels where the men are bigger and the hits harder. This is particularly the case for the older players who often miss games just because of "soreness". Rugby guys play once per week, rikishi have to have to go out and fight for 15 days straight (if I work my desk job for just 7 days straight I am completely mentally jaded). It takes a certain amount of mental energy to get motivated to go and have a fight every day, especially if you are going to be facing one of the guys who hits hard (Hak for example apparently has a tachiai that has the same power as being hit by a car or something like that - I watched a doco about it). The initial impact of a 150kg man hitting you at the tachiai, then the harite, tsuppari, getting thrown onto or off the dohyo all have a physical impact. And the rikishi are all carrying a lot of weight on their frames so longer matches will also take their toll. They have to do this for 15 days straight, so if they face one of the big hitters in the first few days they will be carrying bruising, will be sore etc for the rest of the basho, with no chance to rest and heal. So they have to fight sore, which will just make the soreness worse. It is inevitable that you are going to get hit hard sometime over 15 days of contact. In the latter part of his career Kaio had a specific post-bout routine of massages, baths and stretching, just to allow him to keep moving and be able to mount the dohyo the next day. Without that he wouldn't be able to walk the next day let alone do sumo. I think you might be underestimating the punishment these guys take ;-)

No, I think I’m estimating it about right. I never claimed their life is easy. I just said I don’t think it requires that much stamina to fight once a day and that surely the training conditions them to do that. We were specially talking about tiredness. If it doesn’t prep them for that, there’s something wrong with the keigo.

 

Anyway, this is way off topic!

Edited by Eikokurai

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12 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

No, I think I’m estimating it about right. I never claimed their life is easy. I just said I don’t think it requires that much stamina to fight once a day and that surely the training conditions them to do that. We were specially talking about tiredness. If it doesn’t prep them for that, there’s something wrong with the keigo.

Keigo is hard, brah! ;-)

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15 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

Keigo is hard, brah! ;-)

No doubt! My arthritic knees would buckle if I tried to push Hattorizakura. 

Dont get me wrong. Not requiring stamina isn’t any sort of criticism of sumo. Every sport is different and makes different demands on the athletes. One of the things I love about sumo is that it’s pretty damn different in what it involves. We already have boxing for the long, multi-round combat sport. Sumo has something else: explosive power, spatial awareness, quick hands and feet, and the ability to make rapid decisions and avoid slight errors that get punished in an instant because there are no second chances. Rikishi train for short, sudden bursts of violence, whereas a boxer trains to stay in the fight for half an hour. The latter requires stamina, the former not so much, and that’s cool. Sumo is the 100m sprint to boxing’s 10k.

Edited by Eikokurai
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1 hour ago, Michishige said:

I wish there were an eye-roll Response next to the Thanks trophy so that I could properly react to it. (Beinghypocrite...)

 

I wouldnt be surprised to find out that Hakuho’s toe is acting up again. Given his pride at being a Yokozuna and the state of the rest of the rikishi at that rank, I’d expect him to keep quiet about it and try to tough it out. 

Hakuho was slow in 360 turn and Tamawashi was faster and continued his thrust. Maybe it is pain in Hakuho's toe again, in any case he lost focus a second before he continued and that was the mistake that Hakuho had done and then it was a win for Tamawashi.

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8 minutes ago, word20 said:

Hakuho was slow in 360 turn and Tamawashi was faster and continued his thrust. Maybe it is pain in Hakuho's toe again, in any case he lost focus a second before he continued and that was the mistake that Hakuho had done and then it was a win for Tamawashi.

I was about to write exactly the same thing. Something was clearly slowing down Hakuho's legwork, and threw him off his pace, which allowed Tamawashi to attack. Perhaps the same thing prevented Hakuho from planting his feet solidly yesterday.

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What's up with the need to look for reasons why Hakuhou loses? He loses because he is no longer 28. It's life. He simply isn't as strong as he used to be. He is human. He has had a poor basho from day 1, against lesser opponents. Everyone saw that. It's natural that he would have a more difficult time with the guys he eventually lost to, a half Mitakeumi notwithstanding than against his opposition the first week. He was lucky to not lose at least three of his first 7. It was discussed here at length. Granted, he could be harboring an injury, but to me he looks much less focused. His body looks like it's lost some muscle. We will never know the full truth and can only speculate, but I think he is losing to time.

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

No, I think I’m estimating it about right. I never claimed their life is easy. I just said I don’t think it requires that much stamina to fight once a day and that surely the training conditions them to do that. We were specially talking about tiredness. If it doesn’t prep them for that, there’s something wrong with the keigo.

 

Anyway, this is way off topic!

My point is that that physical exertion, day after day, makes you tired. Mentally and physically. A sekitori schedule at a basho is hard yakka

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I think Hakuhou seriously misjudged and took for granted that Tamawashi was going out and went into a 'final' spin, which he then paid for dearly.  A concentration lapse that suggests a little complacence perhaps.  After today he must surely be realising that he is no longer strong or quick enough to underestimate his opponents (and that they are getting stronger too).  

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1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Keigo if you are in Japan is the hardest to moushiagetatematsurimasu

Haha. Doh. And I’m usually so careful to check my spelling. :)

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12 minutes ago, Morty said:

My point is that that physical exertion, day after day, makes you tired. Mentally and physically. A sekitori schedule at a basho is hard yakka

Sure, I happily agree that concentration and nervous energy can be exhausting. 

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57 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

What's up with the need to look for reasons why Hakuhou loses? He loses because he is no longer 28. It's life. He simply isn't as strong as he used to be. He is human. He has had a poor basho from day 1, against lesser opponents. Everyone saw that. It's natural that he would have a more difficult time with the guys he eventually lost to, a half Mitakeumi notwithstanding than against his opposition the first week. He was lucky to not lose at least three of his first 7. It was discussed here at length. Granted, he could be harboring an injury, but to me he looks much less focused. His body looks like it's lost some muscle. We will never know the full truth and can only speculate, but I think he is losing to time.

It’s natural to speculate about unusual things. You’re clearly right that he hasn’t looked good throughout the basho. That’s rather new for Hakuho and it invites speculation. Besides...speculating about that is less depressing than contemplating the pile of injuries to popular rikishi. 

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2 hours ago, Akōgyokuseki said:

Aminishiki vs Enho...

MISELET SUMO

Another loss for the old man.....

Kinda stunned by that actually. First time I thought Aminishiki might be ready to retire. For him to lose to someone of Enho's caliber, even at the age of 40, is a serious sign of diminished skills or desire.

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15 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Kinda stunned by that actually. First time I thought Aminishiki might be ready to retire. For him to lose to someone of Enho's caliber, even at the age of 40, is a serious sign of diminished skills or desire.

If I were him, I’d stick around until Haru. He should get one more go in Juryo as he’s J3 right now. That’s basically a free pay cheque for two more months. It wouldn’t matter if he turns up in March and takes a quarterback knee for 15 days, he’d still get his money. Plenty of kinboshi bonuses to his name as well. It’s cynical, but why not, eh?

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Just now, Eikokurai said:

If I were him, I’d stick around until Haru. He should get one more go in Juryo as he’s J3 right now. That’s basically a free pay cheque for two more months. It wouldn’t matter if he turns up in March and takes a quarterback knee for 15 days, he’d still get his money. Plenty of kinboshi bonuses to his name as well. It’s cynical, but why not, eh?

That's what I think he will do too. Aminishiki is a very practical person it seems to me.

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Oh, yes. I'm going to have to get a zabuton for days like this, so I can join in the throwing.

Some excellent matches today, but overshadowed by Hakuho having lost. I don't know what's going to happen, but I can't wait to see it.

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1 minute ago, Rocks said:

That's what I think he will do too. Aminishiki is a very practical person it seems to me.

Does he still get paid if he’s on the banzuke? He could even wait for that, go kyujo and then announce his retirement without even having to put on his mawashi.

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Just now, Eikokurai said:

Does he still get paid if he’s on the banzuke? He could even wait for that, go kyujo and then announce his retirement without even having to put on his mawashi.

He gets paid till he announces intai or drops out of the paid ranks.

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If Kaisei, Endo and Takakeisho all win tomorrow, and Tamawashi loses, we’ll have a five-way tie for the yusho going into the weekend. To be there from two days ago when it looked like Hakuho was going to walk away with it would be pretty remarkable. Sumo, eh? Bloody hell.

Also, if Tamawashi could manage a yusho or jun-yusho, arguably that’d put him on an Ozeki run. Not a strong prospect as his 9-6 last time was from M2, but also not entirely out of the question. He’s come from nowhere this basho with all the attention on Kise, the crap Ozeki and Takakeisho’s promotion bid. 

Edited by Eikokurai
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3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

What's up with the need to look for reasons why Hakuhou loses?

Well, I mean... the same as any analysis of a match or win or loss or technique or injury on this board. We like talking about sumo. And yeah, Hakuho isn't in his prime, but at least a few of us seem to agree there is something more acute causing him issues right now.

I agree that he has lost muscle recently, so the injuries may be affecting his training more than he lets on.

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There we have the reason for the loss: Aoiyama knocked Hakuho over and he wasn't fully recovered from that shock

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Very interesting matches Day 13. Hakuho has not lost  3 in a row in a the 2nd half of a basho, in other words basho he finished, in over 3 years. He hasn't lost 3 in a row to non Y/Os in a basho he has finished in 6 1/2 years and that was the only time that had occurred since he became Ozeki.  A Takakeisho victory tonight could be a real watershed moment.

Edited by Rocks

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