Asashosakari

Banzuke for Hatsu 2019

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20 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I think you're overestimating the skill difference between an average maegashira and the lower ranks.  Yokozuna in the lower divisions?  Yeah, they'd clean up and a loss would be a major blemish.  But your average rank-and-filer will lose a match every once in a while against rikishi competent enough to make sandanme.  One must also consider that he might not have been at 100% his first basho back - he just needed to not be likely to aggravate the injury by competing too early and win at least a one match for it to be better than continuing to sit out.

Even a Yokozuna would lose once in a while in the lower divisions (not that we’ll ever find out). A sumo bout moves so fast that a split second’s lapse in concentration or a momentary misplacing of a foot or a hand can lead to a loss. That’s why zensho is so difficult to achieve. A rikishi can be in the form of his life and still drop a bout. 

Edited by Eikokurai
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I'd imagine that one of the benefits of being a Yokozuna is the limited number of opponents you can face, and ability to learn their technique before ever facing them.  This would be far different in the lower ranks (a just-below-joi Maegashira has about double the spread of potential opponents, and a bottom-of-the-banzuke Maegeshira has about a third more potential opponents).

 

I'm not sure if this proves my point given earlier records than the late 1990s, but since Takanohana it's been ~50/50 for Yokozuna facing much lower-ranked Maegashira that they've never faced before (mostly relative newbies, with some exceptions), which is definitely below the Yok's win/loss record in general, and in the specific tournament (why were Asanosho and Ganyu placed against Takanohana with that poor of a pre-bout record??!!):

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&hth=1&rank1=M17-M8&samed1=on&hthwins1=0&rank2=Y&samed2=on&hthwins2=0&offset=50

1995.07 10 M8e Asanosho 4-6 (5-10) hoshi_kuro.gif tsukiotoshi hoshi_shiro.gif Y1e Takanohana 9-1 (13-2)
1997.07 11 M8w Ganyu 6-5 (8-7) hoshi_kuro.gif yorikiri hoshi_shiro.gif Y1e Takanohana 10-1 (13-2)
2000.11 11 M9w Kotomitsuki 10-1 (13-2) hoshi_shiro.gif View bout shitatedashinage hoshi_kuro.gif Y1e Musashimaru 9-2 (11-4)
2000.11 12 M9w Kotomitsuki 10-2 (13-2) hoshi_kuro.gif View bout kotenage hoshi_shiro.gif Y2e Takanohana 10-2 (11-4)
2002.07 13 M8w Shimotori 9-4 (9-6) hoshi_shiro.gif yorikiri hoshi_kuro.gif Y1e Musashimaru 10-3 (10-5)
2007.09 14 M14w Goeido 10-4 (11-4) hoshi_kuro.gif View bout tottari hoshi_shiro.gif Y1w Hakuho 12-2 (13-2)
2014.09 13 M10e Ichinojo 12-1 (13-2) hoshi_shiro.gif View bout hatakikomi hoshi_kuro.gif Y1w Kakuryu 10-3 (11-4)
2014.09 14 M10e Ichinojo 12-2 (13-2) hoshi_kuro.gif View bout uwatedashinage hoshi_shiro.gif Y1e Hakuho 13-1 (14-1)
2017.01 14 M10e Takanoiwa 11-3 (11-4) hoshi_shiro.gif View bout yorikiri hoshi_kuro.gif Y2e Hakuho 11-3 (11-4)
Edited by itchyknee
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2 hours ago, itchyknee said:

(why were Asanosho and Ganyu placed against Takanohana with that poor of a pre-bout record??!!)

It makes more sense looking at the results from 2 day before the bout (i.e. what the torikumi committee would have seen):

Makuuchi Yusho Arasoi:

7 wins
○○○○○○○● Y1e Takanohana
○○●○○○○○ O1w Wakanohana
○○●○○○○○ O2e Takanonami
○●○○○○○○ M1e Kotonishiki (already faced Takanohana)

6 wins
○○□○●○●○ O1e Musashimaru
○○○●○●○○ M4e Kenko (already faced Takanohana)
○○○○●●○○ M15w Asahiyutaka

5 wins
○○●○○●●○ Y1w Akebono
●●○○○○○● S1e Kaio
○○●○●○●○ S1w Musoyama
●●○○●○○○ M11w Kasugafuji
○●○○●○○● M12w Hamanoshima
○○○●●●○○ M13e Mitoizumi
●○●○○○●○ M13w Konishiki
○●○○○●○● M14w Oginishiki
●○●●○○○○ M15e Wakashoyo

4 wins
●○○●○●○● K1w Kotonowaka
●○○●●●○○ M3w Takatoriki (same heya)
●○●○○●○● M8e Asanosho
○●○●●○●○ M10e Minatofuji
●●○○●○○● M10w Asanowaka
○●●●○○●○ M11e Kiraiho
●○○●○○●● M12e Kirishima
●○●○○●●○ M14e Daishi
Makuuchi Yusho Arasoi:

8 wins
○○●○○○○○○ Y1e Takanohana

7 wins
○○●○○●○○○ Y1w Akebono
○○○●●○○○○ M1w Takatoriki (same heya)
○●○○●○○○○ M14e Hamanoshima

6 wins
○○○●●○●○○ O1w Musashimaru
○●●●○○○○○ O2e Wakanohana
○○●○○○○●● M8w Ganyu
○●○○○●○○● M11e Tochinonada
●○○○○●●○○ M13e Terao

 

Edited by Kamitsuumi
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On 25/12/2018 at 17:52, Oshirokita said:
On 24/12/2018 at 23:30, Nantonoyama said:

So they finally decided to put the 0-5-10 ahead of the 0-0-15

I just don't understand this decision  (I sort of do but it stinks). It seems to encourage un-yokozuna-like behavior. What would the banzuke committee do if Hakuho had decided to enter the basho on Day 11 and lose 5 times? Or enter on the last day and get a single win? Bleh...

Un-yokozuna-like behaviour? Kisenosato did the dohyo-iri four times while the others failed to do their job at all. Looks quite reasonable to me, and my GTB entry agrees.

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19 hours ago, itchyknee said:

why were Asanosho and Ganyu placed against Takanohana with that poor of a pre-bout record??!!

Asanosho was Takanohana's 16th-highest possible opponent, the only guy they skipped to get to him was M6w Tokitsunada at 1-7 (compared to Asanosho's 4-4).

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The mochi-kyuukin ranking of the present makuuchi - they get that in 1000 Yen as their bonus this basho

7962    Hakuho
1376    Kakuryu
1238    Kisenosato
838    Kotoshogiku
820    Goeido
758    Yoshikaze
740    Tochiozan
676    Takayasu
640    Tochinoshin
594    Ikioi
576    Takakeisho
572    Okinoumi
548    Mitakeumi
548    Ichinojo
508    Shohozan
498    Hokutofuji
478    Endo
474    Tamawashi
462    Myogiryu
454    Takarafuji
426    Chiyotairyu
368    Takanoiwa
356    Aoiyama
354    Kotoyuki
340    Shodai
340    Chiyonokuni
340    Abi
320    Kaisei
300    Onosho
292    Sadanoumi
276    Daieisho
274    Yutakayama
272    Asanoyama
272    Daishomaru
270    Ryuden
266    Nishikigi
266    Kagayaki
264    Chiyoshoma
246    Meisei
240    Yago
240    Daiamami
240    Kotoeko
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1000 yen bonus? That's not much - maybe Hakuho will go buy a new set of nail clippers or something?

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2 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

1000 yen bonus? That's not much - maybe Hakuho will go buy a new set of nail clippers or something?

His bonus would get him about 8000 sets of nail clippers. This is the multiplier.

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Maybe I should give it as the original 万man-yen to make it easier to calculate(Thinkingindepth...)

Edited by Akinomaki
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35 minutes ago, Asojima said:

His bonus would get him about 8000 sets of nail clippers. This is the multiplier.

Ah, that makes things make sense now

 

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1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Maybe I should give it as the original 万man-yen to make it easier to calculate(Thinkingindepth...)

Now I am even more confused. (Idunno...) lol

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24 minutes ago, Kishinoyama said:

Now I am even more confused. (Idunno...) lol

 万 (man) is the kanji used to express the number 10,000.  There is no commonly used kanji for 1 million.  Large amounts are normally expressed in man.  i.e., 200万 is 2,000,000.

Edited by Asojima
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1 hour ago, Asojima said:

万 (man) is the kanji used to express the number 10,000.  There is no commonly used kanji for 1 million.  Large amounts are normally expressed in man.  i.e., 200万 is 2,000,000.

To add onto this: the fundamental grouping for japanese numbers is the man, not thousands the way it is with western languages: the next larger group is 100,000,000, or 1 oku (億), and so on.  

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12 hours ago, Kishinoyama said:
13 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Maybe I should give it as the original 万man-yen to make it easier to calculate(Thinkingindepth...)

Now I am even more confused. (Idunno...) lol

THEN you would be even more confused

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I have a question as I am not that into historical results and promotions, but if Takakeisho wins a second yusho this next basho, what kind of promotion is that securing him? Is it 100% Ozeki promotion despite only one sakiwake basho and how does that translate into a yokozuna run given he wins two consecutive out of komusubi, which certain yokozuna have not actually ever done? I mean, he wins two yusho out of komusubi, gets to Ozeki and next time out he needs no yusho but 11-12 wins to actually be considered for yokozuna?

Edited by botev1921

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Anything before you're an Ozeki doesn't count towards Yokozuna.    He's likely to be promoted to Ozeki with enough wins this time--the two previous basho were at Komusubi, which I believe is 'good enough' for an Ozeki run.

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4 hours ago, botev1921 said:

I have a question as I am not that into historical results and promotions, but if Takakeisho wins a second yusho this next basho, what kind of promotion is that securing him? Is it 100% Ozeki promotion despite only one sakiwake basho and how does that translate into a yokozuna run given he wins two consecutive out of komusubi, which certain yokozuna have not actually ever done? I mean, he wins two yusho out of komusubi, gets to Ozeki and next time out he needs no yusho but 11-12 wins to actually be considered for yokozuna?

He’ll become Ozeki without a doubt if he wins the upcoming basho. The number of basho at Sekiwake doesn’t matter, only the total wins over the three basho previous, of which precedent shows at least two should be in sanyaku. That particular box has already been ticked. 

Yokozuna is out of the question, but theoretically if he were to win a third in a row with the third as Ozeki, there’d at least be a conversation about it by the YDC. Nobody has ever passed through Ozeki that quickly, nor has any Ozeki won his debut tournament at the rank after two successive yusho, so it is impossible to say for sure what would happen. Personally, I doubt they’d promote him that soon as he’s still young. I think they’d want him to win a second title at Ozeki.

Edited by Eikokurai

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14 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

THEN you would be even more confused

I sure am. ;-)

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8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Yokozuna is out of the question, but theoretically if he were to win a third in a row with the third as Ozeki, there’d at least be a conversation about it by the YDC. Nobody has ever passed through Ozeki that quickly, nor has any Ozeki won his debut tournament at the rank after two successive yusho, so it is impossible to say for sure what would happen. Personally, I doubt they’d promote him that soon as he’s still young. I think they’d want him to win a second title at Ozeki.

I think I agree, people are too quick to say that "everything before Ozeki doesn't count" as if it were written down somewhere. Its accurate almost all the time and good as a rule of thumb especially for "back to back yusho equivalent", but if you actually are talking about back-to-back-to-back Yusho in Sanyaku? There at least has to be a discussion, but in his case age probably would weigh against him.

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8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

He’ll become Ozeki without a doubt if he wins the upcoming basho. The number of basho at Sekiwake doesn’t matter, only the total wins over the three basho previous, of which precedent shows at least two should be in sanyaku. That particular box has already been ticked. 

That's a fair description, and for clarity the ozeki candidate must start the run for that exalted rank in at least the joi-jin if not in sanyaku.

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Agreed. I feel like a back-to-back yusho at Komusubi and Sekiwake should be treated as the equivalent of an Ozeki yusho, given they fight pretty much the same schedules. The YDC would, I imagine, at least talk about a promotion. It would then come down to the individual. With Takakeisho I believe they’d hold off for a bit, if only because a) he’s still young, b) there’s no ‘need’ for a Yokozuna and c) his first yusho was in a nokozuna tournament. I think they’d want to see if he can be consistent in the long term and in a more competitive field. This is all hypothetical, of course. There’s no precedent for us to look to. The closest we’ve come has been Tochiazuma and Hakuho’s Ozeki debut yusho following two jun-yusho at Sekiwake, but that’s still quite a way from the scenario we’re contemplating here.

Edited by Eikokurai

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6 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

That's a fair description, and for clarity the ozeki candidate must start the run for that exalted rank in at least the joi-jin if not in sanyaku.

I would say that if Ichinojo's first two tournaments at Sekiwake had been impressive enough, he would have been promoted despite the first being well down in the rank-and-file.  But "impressive enough" would likely mean something more than just averaging 11 wins like is generally required for Ozeki promotion.

Edited by Gurowake

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19 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

The closest we’ve come has been Tochiazuma and Hakuho’s Ozeki debut yusho following two jun-yusho at Sekiwake, but that’s still quite a way from the scenario we’re contemplating here. 

Slightly pre-modern era, but Futabayama during his 69-win streak is almost a precedent, and not in favor of an early promotion.

         
 
1936.01 M3e hoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 9-2 J Jun-Yusho (2nd)
Kinboshi
 
1936.05 S1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 11-0 Y Yusho (1st)  
1937.01 O1e hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 11-0 Y Yusho (2nd)  
1937.05 O1e hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 13-0 Y Yusho (3rd)  
1938.01 Y1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 13-0 Y Yusho (4th)  
           
   

 

 

 

   

In the last two tournaments Takakeisho has defeated all 14 of the Maegeshira he faced, and prior to that (10-5 at M3W) defeated 7/10 and (10-5 at M10W) defeated 10/15.  He's already fighting to the standards of a Sekiwake/Ozeki for his two tournaments at Komusubi.  Permissive me would be in favor of a Yokozuna promotion after another Yusho at Sekiwake, so at the very least three in a row at K/S/O should be enough.

I also want to assume there's a reason why Sekiwakae who win a Yusho with a previous sub-par record get promoted to Ozeki anyway: because the association doesn't want to be in a position where someone of lower rank than Ozeki warrants promotion to Yokozuna.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=3918

Asashio

1956.09 S1e hoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 8-7    
1957.01 S1e hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gif 8-7    
1957.03 S1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gif 13-2 Y Yusho (2nd)  
1957.05 O1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_fusensho.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 9-6    

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=3994

Sadanoyama

1961.11 S2eHD hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 8-7    
1962.01 S1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 9-6    
1962.03 S2eHD hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 13-2 Y Yusho (2nd)
Gino-sho (1st)
 
1962.05 O1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 13-2 J Jun-Yusho (1st)  
1962.07 O1e hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 9-6    

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=4112

Kotokaze

1981.05 S1w hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 9-6    
1981.07 S1e hoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gif 10-5    
1981.09 S1e hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gif 12-3 Y Yusho (1st)
Gino-sho (1st)
 
1981.11 O1e hoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_shiro.gifhoshi_kuro.gif 11-4    

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Though, yes, I recognize those three occasions are in the minority (http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&n_basho=3&form1_rank=K-S&form1_oy=on&form2_rank=S&form2_y=on&form3_rank=S), and Asashio may have warranted the promotion as that's the second time in under a year that he yushoed as Sekiwake.

Still, there have to be reasons when exceptions are made.

Edited by itchyknee
last sentence added

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