Akinomaki

Takanoiwa hits his tsukebito

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On 10/12/2018 at 22:25, Kintamayama said:

"I never allowed my guys to have any bandages or taping on the dohyo. Why? It could cause some opponents to use it to their advantage if they thought someone was injured. Takanoiwa started showing up taped up in November, after I left. He also started doing some henkas. I saw that as a sign of weakness and as a warning sign in general," said Ex-Takanohana on TV yesterday.

Wearing bandages and doing henkas may appear to be some sign of weakness to an oyakata. However, they are  not general warning signs indicating that a sekitori is going to knock his tsukebito around.

The advantage of wearing bandages or having taping is that it somehow makes the rikishi feel better knowing that an injured are has some support around it, even if that support is minimal. As for opponents using that fact to their advantage, I assumed that virtually every rikishi has injuries of some sort and I'm sure it's common knowledge where those injuries are located without having a bandage or tape to indicate the exact area. 

Unless there is some sort of rule indicating situations when support can or cannot be worn, what's to keep a rikishi from appying  tape around a perfectly healthy area? A rikishi can say he wears it for no other reason except that it makes him feel better. His opponent can go for that area, and then find out that that instead of having an advantange, he is now put at a disadvantage. This sounds somewhat devious but is it illegal? If there is a rule concernng use of tape and/or bandages, what is it?

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, sekitori said:

His opponent can go for that area....

On the contrary, it is very rare for a rikishi to launch an attack targeting his aite's advertised injury.  Braced knees and wrapped ankles are never kicked or specifically pressured.  Damaged elbows and shoulders are never subjected to kotenage or tottari.  It appears to be a matter of sumo honor to avoid taking advantage of an opponent's injury.

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23 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

 There was that soccer scandal as well where he was suspended for playing soccer in Mongolia while skipping a jungyo due to injury,  and then seemed to have lost it for a while.

 

Is it already time for me again to flog that particular dead horse?

The scandal was the NSK's reaction. After *winning* a basho (his 21st), Asashoryu reported ill presenting some doctor's paper: lower backpain IIRC (Note: He didn't claim he couldn't stand on his feet or move his legs a little). The organization granted the not really unprecedented wish by a Yokozuna to skip a jungyo. Then the good man asked if he was allowed to spend the recovery time in his home Mongolia. No problemo, the bigwigs supposedly faxed.

At home, being a superstar and whatnot, he was at a charity event for children (some UNESCO thing even?, I don't recall). He was probably the absolute attraction and a source of big joy for said children. At this event, he was supposedly shanghaied into participating in some fun football match with and against, you guessed it, children. Some high office figures (mayor, governor?) were asking him to join in.

This was documented by the press and days if not weeks later suddenly scandalized in Japanese papers.

And instead of saying "Asashoryu never claimed that he was unable to kick a ball around a bit, he just said that sumo might be a bit too much. It was a charity event for children after all. We are proud of him", the NSK banned him for two basho.

 

A sick, sick reaction. But hey, the upstart foreigner without manners had recently broken through the holy twenty yusho barrier. Let's show him to his station...

 

I will repeat this for all eternity, because otherwise people will remember the Asashoryu Soccer Scandal and think that this was just another of those reckless things he did.

Edited by yorikiried by fate
putting the U in Asashoryu
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IIRC, it was Japanese superstar soccer player Hidetoshi Nakata, who was on the same flight to Mongolia as Asashoryu and the big draw for the children's charity soccer, who asked the yokozuna if he wouldn't mind dropping by for some face time for a good cause.

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On 12/12/2018 at 07:25, Kintamayama said:

A friendly reminder- neither Takanoiwa nor Harumafuji  were punished. They left before that. I'll bet anyone here that neither would have been thrown out of sumo. They would have received a suspension, a salary cut maybe. Nothing more. Every other poster seems to recall that Harumafuji was kicked out of sumo. He wasn't. He left because he felt it was the right thing to do. He left very quickly, so there was not even time to put pressure on him to leave. 

Erm...the police report that Takanohana refused to withdraw leading to a summary indictment (would that have been the first for any active sekitori? Would the NSK have dismissed him if he stayed on while being charged in a court of law?)

 

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2 hours ago, rhyen said:

Erm...the police report that Takanohana refused to withdraw leading to a summary indictment (would that have been the first for any active sekitori? Would the NSK have dismissed him if he stayed on while being charged in a court of law?)

 

We’ll never know, since it didn’t happen. BTW, Takanohana himself expressed his surprise when he heard Harumafuji retired, immediately after it happened. 

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8 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

 

Is it already time for me again to flog that particular dead horse? etc

I of course disagree. I agree with the facts, but saying it was out of character for the NSK is simply not true. If you're kyujo, (and especially if you're a Yokozuna) you are supposed to stay out of the public eye. Read again what happened to other Japanese Yokozuna (not foreigners who had 20 yushos)- one was suspended just for being seen in a ball game. Asasouryuu was totally out of line re NSK historical policies, which he knew very well.

Edited by Kintamayama
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9 hours ago, sekitori said:

Wearing bandages and doing henkas may appear to be some sign of weakness to an oyakata.

 

Specifically, Takanohana. He gave this example to highlight what he thought were signs that Takanoiwa had changed since Takanohana left, leading to the inevitable intai. I don't think any other oyakata doesn't allow bandages.

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9 hours ago, Asojima said:

On the contrary, it is very rare for a rikishi to launch an attack targeting his aite's advertised injury.  Braced knees and wrapped ankles are never kicked or specifically pressured.  Damaged elbows and shoulders are never subjected to kotenage or tottari.  It appears to be a matter of sumo honor to avoid taking advantage of an opponent's injury.

Unless your name is Asashoryu. His tachiai kick at Dejima's bandaged knee still makes me sick.

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More on Takanoiwa's violent nature, plus the general atmosphere at Takanohana beya, as observed by others in the past, probably not totally objective but interesting all the same..

People familiar with Takanoiwa are saying that Takanoiwa (and Takanohana beya in general) had a  violent streak for years. The first time violent acts of Takanoiwa were revealed was back in December 2014 when former Makushita Takatoushi filed a civil suit against Takanohana for being forced to retire (the claim was settled out of court in February 2018). During this trial, many former Takanohana beya rikishi came forward to testify regarding the violent atmosphere surrounding the heya and specifically Takanoiwa's behavior.  Plaintiff Takatoushi testified that he was hit three times by Takanoiwa for not properly greeting him. When he punched him back, Takanoiwa threatened to kill him. "Go bring that iron dumbbell!" he was heard shouting.  Former Makushita Takamai  testified that when a tsukebito screwed up, Takanoiwa  instructed him to beat up on that tsukebito.. "I refused and he shouted that the tsukebito should do his job, and if he doesn't, he should be beaten up. I got punished the next day when I myself was beaten up by Takanoiwa. Why didn't you hit him??" shouted Takanoiwa at me. In addition, Takamai testified that in November 2013 another rikishi was beaten by Takanohana, ten slaps and ten closed fist hits, splattering Takanohana's room with blood. ex- Sandanme Takashouma  was Takanoiwa's tsukebito for two years. "In Kyushu, Takanoiwa shot me with an air gun. All the lower rankers were prey to Takanoiwa's bullying," he testified. In addition, he also mentioned the brutality of  former caretaker (sewanin) Rambo (yeah..) . "He hit the head of ex-Sandanme Takashinryuu  with a beer case and his head became blood stained. He also attacked ex-Jonidan Koseki  on the head with a cutting board repeatedly, causing the cutting board to break into six pieces.. "  Why was this violence carried out on a daily basis? "Keiko at Takanohana beya began at 4 o'clock in the morning and you had to do shiko hundreds of times before being allowed on the dohyo. Those were famously the most difficult keiko sessions in the sumo world. There was a lot of tension, and the higher rankers took it out on the lower rankers." The absence of an Okamisan was also a factor, some said.  "Keiko (Takanohana's wife) used to go on TV and talk about the importance of the presence of an Okamisan at the heya, taking care of the rikishi's  health and always taking care that their food is balanced etc. and also sometimes conveying the Oyakata's wishes to the deshi. She wasn't around much-she was a traveling okamisan.. She rarely cooked, and if she really had cared, it would not have come to this.." said one of the plaintiffs. A reporter encountered a rikishi more than once at a convenience store near  Takanohana beya buying 20 or more meat pies. That rikishi was Takatoushi. The reporter felt there was not enough food at the heya, causing the rikishi to go out and buy more food for himself. Takanoiwa has left the building, but the eradication of violence seems very far off.

Edited by Kintamayama
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1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

I of course disagree. I agree with the facts, but saying it was out of character for the NSK is simply not true. If you're kyujo, (and especially if you're a Yokozuna) you are supposed to stay out of the public eye. Read again what happened to other Japanese Yokozuna (not foreigners who had 20 yushos)- one was suspended just for being seen in a ball game. Asasouryuu was totally out of line re NSK historical policies, which he knew very well.

That yokozuna was kicked out for being seen at a baseball game after withdrawing from a honbasho. Asashoryu was absent from a jungyo, and therefore got away with his bad judgement with a suspension. Kisenosato withdrew from the Kyushu 2017 honbasho, did not take part in the winter 2017 jungyo, but was photographed at an American Football Bowl Game on January 3, 2018. No problemo.

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Aaah, Japan, never cease to justify the stereotypes. Once someone is down, let's beat him and bring the dirty laundry, just to get the guilty verdict from the public opinion regardless of the real verifiable facts, e.g. Ghosn debacle at the moment. Extra points for bashing the foreigner as well. Where were those whistleblowers before the latest accident and before the heya being disclosed? Is Takanohana-beya the only heya with such issues?

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1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

I of course disagree. I agree with the facts, but saying it was out of character for the NSK is simply not true. If you're kyujo, (and especially if you're a Yokozuna) you are supposed to stay out of the public eye. Read again what happened to other Japanese Yokozuna (not foreigners who had 20 yushos)- one was suspended just for being seen in a ball game. Asasouryuu was totally out of line re NSK historical policies, which he knew very well.

Moti, you (hopefully) know that I love you. But know you're resorting to smoke and mirrors. If anything, your list proves that the NSK was handling Yokozuna issues very inconsistently. This alone somewhat impeded him in "knowing very well".

And about the era and actors in question: Compare that to a reaction at approx. the same time, again in response to one of Asashoryu's "wrongdoings". He came back from Hawaii and was photographed on the plane wearing shorts and an Aloha shirt. Cue certain press asking for public quartering. The NSK's response this time? "We understand that this clothing is considered formal attire in Hawaii. Nothing to see here."

I am not trying to make a case for the NSK's unfairness in general. I don't want to ride the xenophobia train longer than necessary. I don't want to defend Asashoryu unconditionally, since he probably often was/is a dick. BUT: The handling of the charity soccer case is a scandal because it defies any kind of human decency.

But I agree: NSK'S HANDLING OF ASAHORYU'S PARTICIPATION AT A CHILDREN CHARITY EVENT SCANDAL doesn't roll of the tongue as easily as ASASHORYU SOCCER SCANDAL.

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4 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Moti, you (hopefully) know that I love you. But know you're resorting to smoke and mirrors. If anything, your list proves that the NSK was handling Yokozuna issues very inconsistently. This alone somewhat impeded him in "knowing very well".

A

Inconsistent, sure,  but some of the other Yokozuna were treated worse than Asashouryuu. That was the point i was trying to make.

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1 hour ago, Otokonoyama said:

Kisenosato was photographed at an American Football Bowl Game on January 3, 2018. No problemo.

No he wasn’t. (Beardeddisguise...) That’s just someone who really really looks like him. 

96-AEE5-A7-B671-4-FD5-94-C2-36-F5-C79-FC

 

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John, LOL!

Both Moti and YBF are correct. The NSK is a rather schizophrenic org, at least where public troubleshooting is concerned.

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It might be time to roll this out for folks to consider.

Corporal punishment has long history in Japanese sports

Part Two:

Severe Sports-Training Methods Became Taibatsu in Time

It is a long-form exploration of the issue, but Robert Whiting is an excellent writer with deep knowledge of the issue and the country.

Edited by Otokonoyama
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On 12/12/2018 at 08:25, Kintamayama said:

 I'll bet anyone here that neither would have been thrown out of sumo. They would have received a suspension, a salary cut maybe. Nothing more. 

Sorry to burst your bubble here but both were done. If they didn’t jump they would 100% have been pushed. 

That’s not speculation on my part either. It was decided.

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2 hours ago, John Gunning said:

Sorry to burst your bubble here but both were done. If they didn’t jump they would 100% have been pushed. 

That’s not speculation on my part either. It was decided.

Really? In both cases, it was decided within 24 hours? Can you cite your sources? I'm still willing to bet.

Edited by Kintamayama
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5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"She wasn't around much-she was a traveling okamisan.. She rarely cooked, and if she really had cared, it would not have come to this.."

An Okamisan may be responsible for many things, but doing the cooking? That's news to me.

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10 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

An Okamisan may be responsible for many things, but doing the cooking? That's news to me.

Because she was telling everyone that she cooked and was in charge of the rikishi's nutrition.

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14 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Specifically, Takanohana. He gave this example to highlight what he thought were signs that Takanoiwa had changed since Takanohana left, leading to the inevitable intai. I don't think any other oyakata doesn't allow bandages.

I have no idea if wearing bandages is a disadvantage in sumo. However, I can tell you that in European football, to interior defenders (aka criminals) bandages are the equivalent of crosshairs drawn on opponents´ legs.

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8 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Really? In both cases, it was decided within 24 hours? Can you cite your sources? I'm still willing to bet.

I was going to remain silent about this (and no, I don't have any sources here), but I remember pretty well that a source was quoted by many Japanese papers saying that it was either retirement or the boot for Harumafuji. And as far as I can tell, it wasn't in 24 hours. The whole thing boiled for a while - a few days -  before the climax.

Anyway, if half of what is being told is true, no way Takanoiwa was going to remain for much longer. 

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21 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

More on Takanoiwa's violent nature, plus the general atmosphere at Takanohana beya, as observed by others in the past, probably not totally objective but interesting all the same..

People familiar with Takanoiwa are saying that Takanoiwa (and Takanohana beya in general) had a  violent streak for years. The first time violent acts of Takanoiwa were revealed was back in December 2014 when former Makushita Takatoushi filed a civil suit against Takanohana for being forced to retire (the claim was settled out of court in February 2018). During this trial, many former Takanohana beya rikishi came forward to testify regarding the violent atmosphere surrounding the heya and specifically Takanoiwa's behavior.  Plaintiff Takatoushi testified that he was hit three times by Takanoiwa for not properly greeting him. When he punched him back, Takanoiwa threatened to kill him. "Go bring that iron dumbbell!" he was heard shouting.  Former Makushita Takamai  testified that when a tsukebito screwed up, Takanoiwa  instructed him to beat up on that tsukebito.. "I refused and he shouted that the tsukebito should do his job, and if he doesn't, he should be beaten up. I got punished the next day when I myself was beaten up by Takanoiwa. Why didn't you hit him??" shouted Takanoiwa at me. In addition, Takamai testified that in November 2013 another rikishi was beaten by Takanohana, ten slaps and ten closed fist hits, splattering Takanohana's room with blood. ex- Sandanme Takashouma  was Takanoiwa's tsukebito for two years. "In Kyushu, Takanoiwa shot me with an air gun. All the lower rankers were prey to Takanoiwa's bullying," he testified. In addition, he also mentioned the brutality of  former caretaker (sewanin) Rambo (yeah..) . "He hit the head of ex-Sandanme Takashinryuu  with a beer case and his head became blood stained. He also attacked ex-Jonidan Koseki  on the head with a cutting board repeatedly, causing the cutting board to break into six pieces.. "  Why was this violence carried out on a daily basis? "Keiko at Takanohana beya began at 4 o'clock in the morning and you had to do shiko hundreds of times before being allowed on the dohyo. Those were famously the most difficult keiko sessions in the sumo world. There was a lot of tension, and the higher rankers took it out on the lower rankers." The absence of an Okamisan was also a factor, some said.  "Keiko (Takanohana's wife) used to go on TV and talk about the importance of the presence of an Okamisan at the heya, taking care of the rikishi's  health and always taking care that their food is balanced etc. and also sometimes conveying the Oyakata's wishes to the deshi. She wasn't around much-she was a traveling okamisan.. She rarely cooked, and if she really had cared, it would not have come to this.." said one of the plaintiffs. A reporter encountered a rikishi more than once at a convenience store near  Takanohana beya buying 20 or more meat pies. That rikishi was Takatoushi. The reporter felt there was not enough food at the heya, causing the rikishi to go out and buy more food for himself. Takanoiwa has left the building, but the eradication of violence seems very far off.

Whew!   It's a good thing that Takanohana is no longer leading the beya.   Hopefully, things are changed for better for the former Takanohana beya risksihis.   

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Wasn’t Takanohana trying to be a reformer? Did he just have an epiphany fairly recently or is it a case of “do as I say not as I do?”

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