Akinomaki

Takanoiwa hits his tsukebito

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With the start of the scandal, the wide shows had detailed reports about the final report on violence and showed the graph of violence going down over the years

On 19/10/2018 at 20:30, Akinomaki said:

Final report: 5.2% of the about 900 NSK members questioned told that they were subjected to violence last year  - in 1978 it were 37%

Add to this that in 1978, things that now are called violence were not more than a pad on the shoulder for the guys back then - and that only very recently, people began to really talk remotely open about it.

Violence is disappearing, but people get more and more hysteric about it not having disappeared

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3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

With the start of the scandal, the wide shows had detailed reports about the final report on violence and showed the graph of violence going down over the years

Add to this that in 1978, things that now are called violence were not more than a pad on the shoulder for the guys back then - and that only very recently, people began to really talk remotely open about it.

Violence is disappearing, but people get more and more hysteric about it not having disappeared

One out of twenty is still quite a lot. And question is - did they really begin to talk, or is it more suppressed than it used to be?

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10 hours ago, inhashi said:

Years ago, Kotokanyu punched Ikioi in shitakubeya after a match together.  Kotokanyu not appreciating being on the receiving end of then 19 year old Ikioi's harite.  He soon retired after that.  More recent are Hikarugenji who was susupended two basho from ongoing? violent behavior.  Then, there was Komanokuni involved with Shibatayama oyakata  which brought up litigation only later to be swept under the rug from public.

So it seems these incidents are really quickly and easily forgotten about yet we know it happens.

Good examples. I suppose they’ve been forgotten because they happened in and among lower-division rikishi. They get less attention from media and fans. I’m not even sure I knew of all three.

As for masculinity and sumo and all the rest, one of the things I like about sumo is that it’s a combat sport minus the thuggish, dickish, in-your-face “manliness” you get in boxing, MMA and some other fighting sports. Sumo has no Conor McGregors or Floyd Mayweathers and that’s the way I like it. It’s a pure test of strength and skill, and nobody is threatening to rip anyone’s head off or smash their teeth in. It manages to be tough while also being chivalrous. Rugby – the other sport I follow closely – has similar values.

Edited by Eikokurai
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The violence hysteria tends to equal real violence with a trifle like the incident now - ordinary people involved would make it a crime, but in the sumo world this is just a slight misbehavior - these are men who engage in violence as their profession.

It is actually ridiculous that a rikishi has to retire for that - but it's still the right thing for this case:  he has disgraced the sport in the eyes of the public, which it now serves as a public interest organization, and disobeyed the rules set by the elders - and he is the one who really should have known.

In other circumstances this would have led to just a stern warning, without anybody being annoyed about that decision.

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1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

It is actually ridiculous that a rikishi has to retire for that - but it's still the right thing for this case:  he has disgraced the sport in the eyes of the public, which it now serves as a public interest organization, and disobeyed the rules set by the elders - and he is the one who really should have known.

In other circumstances this would have led to just a stern warning, without anybody being annoyed about that decision.

 

This "retirement" is the "stern warning" to others that such things are not tolerated.   I hope it helps. 

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2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The violence hysteria tends to equal real violence with a trifle like the incident now - ordinary people involved would make it a crime, but in the sumo world this is just a slight misbehavior - these are men who engage in violence as their profession.

It is actually ridiculous that a rikishi has to retire for that - but it's still the right thing for this case:  he has disgraced the sport in the eyes of the public, which it now serves as a public interest organization, and disobeyed the rules set by the elders - and he is the one who really should have known.

In other circumstances this would have led to just a stern warning, without anybody being annoyed about that decision.

To relate this to my own experience-- I served in the army, once upon a time, and violence was my profession. The days when it was an accepted part of that culture for superiors to abuse or assault their subordinates are shrinking in the rearview mirror. It doesn't make anyone a better soldier. The whole military community is better because of this.

I despise a bully. People who take advantage of vulnerable people, who do injury to those who are at a disadvantage because of their inferior social position, are despicable. I value the preservation of sumo culture and traditions, exactly as they are today, less than I do protection for people who are at the mercy of thugs. I recognize that Sumo doesn't belong to me, and none of this is up to me. I joined this community to share my enthusiasm for sumo, to learn from more experienced fans, to express my views, and maybe make a few friends along the way. So far, so good. I'm powerless to effect the behavior of anyone in sumo, anyway. I'm not uncomfortable to be judged a sanctimonious, western, Johnny-come-lately.

However, Sumo itself is visibly struggling to change it's own standards and norms. The wider Japanese culture, of which Sumo is only a sub-culture and to which the sumo community belongs, has begun to reject Sumo as it has been. The Sumo Association is trying to steer the sumo community into line with the expectations of the broader society, and I'm just on a guy on the sidelines, cheering. In short, I have picked a side.

Some of the posters here seem to think that things are better off the way they are; whatever their reasons may be-- I disagree. Others say that they're bothered by the violence and abuse; but not, apparently, as much as they are by people voicing their objections. I've seen that before many times.

I'll applaud the sumo association when it deals sternly with brutes who take advantage of their subordinate's vulnerability. I think that Japanese law-enforcement treating a talented rikishi the same way they would some hooting dickhole who beat up his girlfriend would be a very healthy thing. If we could get similarly reliable intervention for football and basketball players here in the States, that would be much appreciated as well.

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7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

In other circumstances this would have led to just a stern warning, without anybody being annoyed about that decision.

Last such transgression led to suspension, and it was a first-time offender. I'd say the NSK is pretty clear about their treatment of such stuff

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On 09/12/2018 at 15:22, inhashi said:

Years ago, Kotokanyu punched Ikioi in shitakubeya after a match together.  Kotokanyu not appreciating being on the receiving end of then 19 year old Ikioi's harite.  He soon retired after that.  More recent are Hikarugenji who was susupended two basho from ongoing? violent behavior.  Then, there was Komanokuni involved with Shibatayama oyakata  which brought up litigation only later to be swept under the rug from public.

So it seems these incidents are really quickly and easily forgotten about yet we know it happens.

I did mention from after Asashōryū so the first one doesn’t count in that sense, but I did fail to remember the other two.

Since we went into digging-up mode, I feel like mentioning I remember I think a coach in Miyagino-beya (Hakuhō’s) beat a deshi with a metal bat or something, and he had really terrible bruises (there were pictures). When I made my first post I meant stuff between rikishi so I didn’t mention this one, but since nobody’s mentioned it while digging up other cases I felt like why not.

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After being mainly on NiTele lately, Taka is now back to Asahi TV: to talk about Takanoiwa, he was interviewed for 1 hour 2 days ago - and that was aired on the early Good!Morning show today, which unfortunately is practically never covered by the sources on the net. The later Wide!Scramble had a good deal of the interview, in both parts of the show - with Takatoriki as guest later.

Taka didn't answer the phone when Takanoiwa called him before the intai decision, and he won't meet him the next 10 years - till he has learned a new trade properly.

10:59h-11:15h http://www.miomio.tv/watch/cc411463/

0:34h-1:06h http://www.miomio.tv/watch/cc411465/

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2018/12/10/kiji/20181210s00041000300000c.html

 

Other wide shows had plenty of coverage as well

Goody with Ishinriki 2:50h-3:11h - Ishinriki thinks Takanoiwa should join the fighting world

The head of RIZIN doesn't want him - they don't want to be seen as the container for scandal culprits from sumo - especially after the bad experience with Osunaarashi http://www.sponichi.co.jp/battle/news/2018/12/10/kiji/20181210s00003000311000c.html

Vivit 8:38h, 8 min with reactions in Mongolia, Gogo Smile 2:23h, 15m, with danpatsu-shiki trivia

HiruObi in both parts, 8+16m, Viking 0:06h 1hour, Miyane-ya 2:38h, 11m

Edited by Akinomaki

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I knew it...

When the harumafuji thing came out and Takanohana was saying that he was playing in his deshi's interestings...I was like "whaaaaat? you are ending with the guy's career..."

Seems for me that the elders were just waiting for an excuse to put things fair and square again. Took some time but now all the involved in the acident are done.

(Feelingguilty...)

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On 08/12/2018 at 19:31, Akinomaki said:

The NSK will quickly hold the next lessons against violence, they want to show that they are serious and react promptly:

at each heya the shisho will tell the sekitori how to treat the tsukebito:

1. the tsukebito is not your maid, but the deshi of the shisho, and the shisho entrust him to you for guidance

2. Never use violence against the tsukebito. Sekitori and tsukebito have to feel mutual gratitude when they work together

3. Don't have the tsukebito go around with you till late at night. Take care that there is no negative effect on next day's morning keiko for the tsukebito

4. The conduct of the sekitori has to be a positive example for the tsukebito

This was the first of 6 measures announced on the 8th - 5 more are scheduled for the 19th, the next rijikai

2. It's during the jungyo break, the next lesson on violence will be held at the kokugikan (was planned for February), same subject: tsukebito

3. At the rijikai the regulations to ban violence will be acknowledged and implemented the same day.

4. A compliance committee will be inaugurated  that day

5. The standards of how to punish rikishi violence will be determined, according to banzuke (still not the violence by oyakata etc.) - with the penalties for Takanoiwa and Chiganoura-oyakata as the first example

6. An advisor to improve the results of educating rikishi at different levels will be nominated, from new recruits to sekitori - an external expert will be entrusted with this

http://www.hochi.co.jp/sports/sumo/20181208-OHT1T50260.html

 

Takanoiwa today was at the NSK offices to complete the intai formalities paper work. http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20181210/sum18121018260009-n1.html

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14 hours ago, Shio-kago said:

To relate this to my own experience-- I served in the army, once upon a time, and violence was my profession. The days when it was an accepted part of that culture for superiors to abuse or assault their subordinates are shrinking in the rearview mirror. It doesn't make anyone a better soldier. The whole military community is better because of this.

I will throw in my experience here.   I, a Korean national then, was training to be a boxer at age 12 in early 1970's.   My coach would sometimes beat me if I can't follow his instruction.   It was a "controlled" beating, not something he did to take it out on me.   The beating was harmless, something that more or less "reminded" me to pay more attention.   That sort of beating was pretty common then.   But, I thought those days are gone.  Based on current news out of Korea, players still get beatings and even seriously assaulted.   Recently, the world's 2nd ranked short track woman (Shim Suk Hee) skater was beaten repeatedly by her coach.   The guy is now facing jail sentence b/c of it.   If a guy can violently assault a 2nd ranked woman skater in the world, I can imagine what can happen to lesser players.   The good thing is, this sort of thing is now looked down upon, and even lead to criminal conviction.   This is the way it should be.  After all, we are not living in a world where such violence is accepted by society, parents of athletes, athlete association, ....   

 

One last word, Takanoiwa is allowed to go through the normal Intai ceremony/ritual.   That seems "light" punishment to me.   I am sure to be criminally charged if I beat someone in, say, Tokyo, b/c I was having a bad day.    No such justice for Takanoiwa.   Instead, he will get a nice Intai and severance pay?   Hmm.

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"I never allowed my guys to have any bandages or taping on the dohyo. Why? It could cause some opponents to use it to their advantage if they thought someone was injured. Takanoiwa started showing up taped up in November, after I left. He also started doing some henkas. I saw that as a sign of weakness and as a warning sign in general," said Ex-Takanohana on TV yesterday.

Edited by Kintamayama
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18 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

After being mainly on NiTele lately, Taka is now back to Asahi TV: to talk about Takanoiwa, he was interviewed for 1 hour 2 days ago - and that was aired on the early Good!Morning show today, which unfortunately is practically never covered by the sources on the net. The later Wide!Scramble had a good deal of the interview, in both parts of the show - with Takatoriki as guest later.

Taka didn't answer the phone when Takanoiwa called him before the intai decision, and he won't meet him the next 10 years - till he has learned a new trade properly.

And the rest of the interview with Taka was on the 2nd part of Wide!Scramble today http://www.miomio.tv/watch/cc411606/

with analysis of what he might have meant - 0:39h-1:02h

Really good info today was on GogoSmile http://www.miomio.tv/watch/cc411686/

with focus on the 2nd life of a rikishi - Ishinriki as guest - 2:46h-3:28h

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If no one turns up to honour Takanoiwa at his intai ceremony, that might be a very awkward punishment.

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1 hour ago, orandashoho said:

If no one turns up to honour Takanoiwa at his intai ceremony, that might be a very awkward punishment.

As long as he has no intai-zumo, it won't drive him bankrupt - but also the cost to rent the kokugikan for the danpatsu-shiki should be quite costly and risky for a rikishi as unpopular as Takanoiwa

On 01/09/2014 at 16:39, Akinomaki said:

Kotooshu is appearing in all kind of TV programs lately: the reason shows in this one: he is anxious he might not sell all his intai-zumo tickets for the kokugikan: a rikishi has to organize the whole event at his own cost and needs about 7000 spectators to break even.

On 06/02/2010 at 14:51, Jonosuke said:

Now as for a Dampatsu ceremony, there is no rule as it is not organized by the Kyokai but by a supporters group of heya or rikishi. Anyone can rent the Kokugikan and anyone can invite anyone to come to his dampatsu ceremony there. However if a retired rikishi holds a dampatsu ceremony at the Kokugikan's main dohyo, one has to follow certain Kyokai protocols, often with Ichimon rikishi, sekitori, gyoji, yobidashi etc as it will be advertized as a Kyokai sponsored event and becomes its function (the organizing group will need to sell substantial number of tickets to break even though as it will be pretty expensive venture).

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20 hours ago, Jabbamaru said:

Seems for me that the elders were just waiting for an excuse to put things fair and square again. Took some time but now all the involved in the acident are done.

(Feelingguilty...)

I have the same bitter aftertaste.
Obviously, it is legitimate for Takanoiwa to be punished because such acts are unacceptable. On the other hand, I notice that the two "insiders" who stick their necks out and broke the law of silence last year were quietly pushed out...

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I would hardly say beating your tsukebito a month after a no tolerance policy is put into effect counts as being quietly pushed out. They had a policy, he broke it, and now he’s out. Doesn’t reek of a set-up to me. Just reeks of a guy who never regularly skirted the rules getting busted. 

Edited by Churaumi
Words are hard, yo.

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A friendly reminder- neither Takanoiwa or Harumafuji  were punished. They left before that. I'll bet anyone here that neither would have been thrown out of sumo. They would have received a suspension, a salary cut maybe. Nothing more. Every other poster seems to recall that Harumafuji was kicked out of sumo. He wasn't. He left because he felt it was the right thing to do. He left very quickly, so there was not even time to put pressure on him to leave. Kotokanyuu left by himself as well. I actually don't recall anyone being kicked out of sumo for beating up anyone, except Futahaguro of course, and that was because he apparently hit his okamisan, not another rikishi. And if you insist Asashouryuu was thrown out, he hit some restaurant owner guy in Roppongi. If it happened, it was either for gambling or for SMS yaocho. Even smuggling illegal firearms into Japan didn't cause Yokozunae to be fired. Please feel free to refresh my memory, referring to rikishi from say 1980 and later, that were thrown out of sumo for violence against their peers.

A short reminder regarding Yokozunae:

October 1949- 39th Yokozuna Maedayama-= Seen at a baseball game with the San Francisco Seals while kyujo-had his picture taken with the manager. Called to intai, and did.

May 1965- 47th Yokozuna Kashiwado and 48th Yokozuna Taihou- returning from a jungyo in the US, tried to smuggle guns into Japan. Rebuke from the Kyokai, police investigation.

May 1972-52nd Yokozuna Kitanofuji- Flew to Hawaii while kyujo and was seen surfing. Reprimanded by the Kyokai.

1985 - 54th Yokozuna Wajima, inherited Hanaregoma beya after retiring, and used the stock as collateral for a loan. Forced to cease existing in the sumo world, and cease he did.

December 1987- 60th Yokozuna Futahaguro thrown out of sumo for attacking his oyakata and okamisan.

2010-during the January basho- 68th Yokozuna Asashouryuu- got into a drunken brawl in Roppongi, police involved, called upon to retire, and did. There was that soccer scandal as well where he was suspended for playing soccer in Mongolia while skipping a jungyo due to injury,  and then seemed to have lost it for a while.

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39 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

....A short reminder regarding Yokozunae: 

....1985 - 54th Yokozuna Wajima, inherited Hanaregoma beya after retiring, and used the stock as collateral for a loan. Forced to cease existing in the sumo world, and cease he did.

Wasn't this loan allegedly from the Yakuza? I am not sure if this was ever proven.

Edited by Kishinoyama
Trimmed some more of the quote.

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