Eikokurai

Kyushu Basho 2018 Discussion [SPOILERS]

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5 hours ago, lackmaker said:

Defeated rikishi are quite often offered a hand up or back in by their opponent and this seems almost invariably declined. Given that attitude it's a wonder the gesture is continued at all. 

Personally, I find that extremely satisfying. It ties the image and self-image of a warrior caste to the civility that is the foundation of any society that has left barbarism behind.

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But is the hand offered just a gesture, with the full knowledge it will likely be rejected?

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BTW: Am I the only one who noticed that Takayasu was talking quite visibly (to Mitakeumi?) mid-bout? It happened just after the initial scare, when he finally had something like a hidari-yotsu position and Mitakeumi was digging in. What could he have said?

 

*Hey, what's going on?! You almost pushed me out! Didn't you find the envelope in the watertank of the toilet?

-Didntfindnoenvelope....

*My tsukebito put it there, I swear!

-Needthewinsman. Wannabe Ozeki...

*You're make-koshi, godammit!

-Didntfindnoenvelope. Didntseenocunt...

*Bitch. I'm so going to push you!

 

It's possible!

Edited by yorikiried by fate
missing question marks
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7 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Measuring grip strength would suggest that they are interested in yotsu-zumo aptitude.  While I obviously would agree that reach would make an interesting data set, it would apply to both oshi-zumo and yotsu-zumo.

Sorry, I meant preferred grip as in left-hand or right-hand, but I was forgetting that they also test grip strength too.

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15 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

On the contrary- they sound that they are very lenient in this. They chose the lightest one between "encouragement", "caution" and "intai suggestion". "We definitely will not pressure him to retire at this point.." said one member. This whole YDC Kyushu thing never happens. This time they were there in full force, so they had a meeting as well, after watching the last day's action. "There was a lot of excitement without any Yokozunae. So much so that people may be saying 'Maybe we don't need any Yokozuna..' " said chairman Kitamura.

Some voices within the YDC  were heard saying that if Kisenosato goes kyujo in January, there is a possibility of them calling on him to retire ("retirement recommendation")."I personally want to see him show up next basho. If he doesn't, we will have to deal with this possibility.." said the chairman. BTW, it's the first time ever that an "encouragement" was issued to a Yokozuna since it was decided upon in 1950.  This "encouragement" decision is a nice way of pointing out that the Yokozuna is weak, for lack of such a choice, one step before recommending some action.  Reminder-their decisions have no real bearing-they are just suggestions. Yokozuna Asashouryuu back then was given a "retirement recommendation" after the soccer scandal, but remained active.

Edited by Kintamayama
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5 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

BTW: Am I the only one who noticed that Takayasu was talking quite visibly (to Mitakeumi) mid-bout. It happened just after the initial scare, when he finally had something like a hidari-yotsu position and Mitakeumi was digging in. What could he have said?

 

*Hey, what's going on?! You almost pushed me out! Didn't you find the envelope in the watertank of the toilet?

-Didntfindnoenvelope....

*My tsukebito put it there, I swear!

-Needthewinsman. Wannabe Ozeki...

*You're make-koshi, godammit!

-Didntfindnoenvelope. Didntseenocunt...

*Bitch. I'm so going to push you!

 

It's possible!

"My indigestion is contagious.."

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I don’t see how Kise can go kyujo in January after that disastrous 0-5 opening in Kyushu. Unless he has a serious case of denial, he will know as well as anyone that he’s just crossed the sumo Rubicon. He’s either in or he’s out. The kyujo-shutsujo roundabout has to come to a stop sometime.

Edited by Eikokurai
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3 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

BTW: Am I the only one who noticed that Takayasu was talking quite visibly (to Mitakeumi?) mid-bout? It happened just after the initial scare, when he finally had something like a hidari-yotsu position and Mitakeumi was digging in. What could he have said?

 

 

I noticed it also and my imagination ran wild when it happened.   I was thinking of Takayasu uttering the following:

1) "Come on, bro.   Go down once for me.  I will take care of you later."

2) "Dang, I almost got you."

3) "Want to dance, huh?  Want to dance?"

Then the bout was over which got me out of my imagination trance.

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6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Sumo is a sport, although purists would dispute that to a certain degree.  As a sport, sportsmanship is highly valued – hence the positive response from sumoforum members to the gesture between Mitakeumi and Takayasu in the ring.  But there is also a cultural value in discouraging this sort of kindness between sumo wrestlers, since a spirit of pure competitiveness has to be maintained to achieve true, unrestrained martial battles.

 

"Sportsmanship" and being a "good winner" or "good loser" is a western European ideal that is entirely absent from many other cultures which don't have any concept of sportsmanship or any of the values encompassed by that term. So we need to be careful about transferring that value to Japanese, Mongolian or any other non-Western culture. Just because we think that way, doesn't mean they do. 

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11 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

David Benjamin states in his book on sumo that such gestures of compassion for one's opponent are "pathetic".

Pathetic doesn't only mean "evoking feeling of contempt", though that's what it's mostly used for these days.  Could David Benjamin be using the term in its "evoking sympathy" sense?

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9 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

It doesn't make sense that she wasn't sitting in the stadium watching her son, unless of course she was simply too nervous!  There is a possibility that she was an an adjacent box to her husband's, and NHK cameras simply didn't show her.

It must be almost impossible to get a seat for day 15 on the spot, let alone adjacent ones. His father said he stopped to come to watch, because each time he did, his son lost - except this time. And maybe, for 10 times the price, they bought only one ticket from ?

Or the company that arranged for the ticket only had one left for this purpose

Edited by Akinomaki
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Any thoughts out there about the measures taken at the Kyushu Tournament to stop zabuton throwing?  How exactly did they secure the zabutons to the floor of the boxed seats?

I for one missed that particular sumo tradition this time around, and I fear that the same measures might be used at the Kokugikan as well as the other venues from now on.  My theory is that rich sumo fans seated close to the ring were upset about being in the line of fire, and they complained to the NSK.  But I seriously doubt anyone was ever seriously injured by a flying zabuton...  The end of the Heisei Era may mark the end of the flying zabuton!

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1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

Any thoughts out there about the measures taken at the Kyushu Tournament to stop zabuton throwing?  How exactly did they secure the zabutons to the floor of the boxed seats?

I for one missed that particular sumo tradition this time around, and I fear that the same measures might be used at the Kokugikan as well as the other venues from now on.  My theory is that rich sumo fans seated close to the ring were upset about being in the line of fire, and they complained to the NSK.  But I seriously doubt anyone was ever seriously injured by a flying zabuton...  The end of the Heisei Era may mark the end of the flying zabuton!

The cushion throwing is a fun tradition but I feel it’s been overused. I’m sure I’ve seen the zabuton thrown for relatively ordinary outcomes. It should be reserved for kinboshi situations or maybe, push come to shove, for an upset in a very significant bout, such as if a maegashira won a playoff against a sanyaku rikishi that’s not Yokozuna. These days people seem to throw them just for results that are important to the yusho race or an Ozeki run, regardless of how much of an upset it was.

Edited by Eikokurai
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40 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

The cushion throwing is a fun tradition but I feel it’s been overused.

Cushion throwing was certainly overused at Aki, where we saw a zabuton fly when Takayasu beat Kakuryu. I wouldn't want to see it become the equivalent of golf's "get in the hole!".

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Watching Takayasu-Mitakeumi again, Im not sure if Takayasu is actually talking, or if he was just breathing heavily and straining in a manner that makes it seem that way. Almost looks like he was chewing or biting down on something.

As for offering a hand, I see Japanese and foreign rikishi do it constantly throughout  all the divisions, as well as in Japanese amasumo, so I have doubts that it's that stigmatized. I know Kitanoumi said he never offered a hand, because he consisered it disrespectful to his opponent to act as though they needed help getting back up, and maybe some writers have overgeneralized from that high-profile case.

Edited by Katooshu
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14 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Watching Takayasu-Mitakeumi again, Im not sure if Takayasu is actually talking, or if he was just breathing heavily and straining in a manner that makes it seem that way. Almost looks like he was chewing or biting down on something.

Perhaps related to this...http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/10359-sumo-protection/?do=findComment&comment=94691

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2 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Cushion throwing was certainly overused at Aki, where we saw a zabuton fly when Takayasu beat Kakuryu. I wouldn't want to see it become the equivalent of golf's "get in the hole!".

"You, the man!"

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3 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Cushion throwing was certainly overused at Aki, where we saw a zabuton fly when Takayasu beat Kakuryu. I wouldn't want to see it become the equivalent of golf's "get in the hole!".

Anyone abusing the zabuton tradition will be permanently banned from the restrooms!

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13 minutes ago, itchyknee said:

Anyone abusing the zabuton tradition will be permanently banned from the restrooms!

Then the zabutons are gonna end up much worse than just thrown...

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On 27/11/2018 at 07:57, Akinomaki said:
On 26/11/2018 at 22:43, Amamaniac said:

It doesn't make sense that she wasn't sitting in the stadium watching her son, unless of course she was simply too nervous!  There is a possibility that she was an an adjacent box to her husband's, and NHK cameras simply didn't show her.

It must be almost impossible to get a seat for day 15 on the spot, let alone adjacent ones. His father said he stopped to come to watch, because each time he did, his son lost - except this time.

She lined up in the morning to get tickets of the day and sat in the last row - he sat in a masu seat in reach of the standard NHK cameras - 4 days in the first half, day 14 and 15. http://www.zakzak.co.jp/spo/news/181128/spo1811280012-n1.html

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4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

She lined up in the morning to get tickets of the day and sat in the last row - he sat in a masu seat in reach of the standard NHK cameras - 4 days in the first half, day 14 and 15.

Traditional Japanese male domination (misogyny by another name) is alive and well.  Although, to be fair, the father had the heavier hand in his son's sumo career.

This brings me back to my question on another thread.  Who was that thin Japanese woman in white who appeared in the shitakubeya for the 応援 photos with Takakeisho and the Emperor's Cup?  She had strategic (near) front row seats throughout the tournament.  If she were a true supporter and fan of Takakeisho, she could have offered her seat to Takakeisho's mother on the senshuraku.  But I guess she was more interested in getting TV exposure for herself.  She sat almost directly behind Takakeisho on the last day. 

If you uncover the true identity of that woman (not Rie Miyazawa as proposed by Jakusotsu), then you will impress me more than you already do. ;-) 

Edited by Amamaniac
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On 27/11/2018 at 01:12, Amamaniac said:

Any thoughts out there about the measures taken at the Kyushu Tournament to stop zabuton throwing?  How exactly did they secure the zabutons to the floor of the boxed seats?

I for one missed that particular sumo tradition this time around, and I fear that the same measures might be used at the Kokugikan as well as the other venues from now on.  My theory is that rich sumo fans seated close to the ring were upset about being in the line of fire, and they complained to the NSK.  But I seriously doubt anyone was ever seriously injured by a flying zabuton...  The end of the Heisei Era may mark the end of the flying zabuton!

I seem to recall that the zabuton in the box seats were connected together with sturdy fabric strips, which makes the set of 4 cushions a bit like a single, flimsy 4' x 4' cushion that is seriously lacking aerodynamics. You would have to get everyone to stand up at the same time (difficult, after an afternoon of drinking!) and somehow throw an object more akin to a floppy sun hat than a discus. You'd probably only be able to lob it as far as the people sitting in directly front of you. And they'd have a pretty good idea who did it. And you'd be forced to abase yourself for twenty minutes while the spokes guy from the box in front of you rubbed the back of his head and tersely dismissed your apologies with "nnnn, soooo" and the occasional sharp inhalation through his teeth. Meanwhile, he's holding what is clearly your pillow, because your box is the only box with all its pillows missing. And when he looks pointedly at your empty floor, you'd quickly make some excuse about having sent your pillow out for dry cleaning earlier in the match, and you obviously cringe at the complete lameness of the excuse even as you make it, and so you're actually relieved when Shikoroyama oyakata arrives flanked by two security guards to inform you of a lifetime ban from...wait. I didn't mean for this to sound quite so incriminating.

Edited by Benevolance
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