Kyushu Basho 2018 Discussion [SPOILERS]

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

Top 10 updates:

 - Takakeisho is the 6th youngest makuuchi yusho winner (since 1958) at 22 years and 3 months. He is now in the same company such as his former shisho, Kitanoumi, and Hakuho
 - Takakeisho ties Akebono for the 6th 4th fastest makuuchi yusho from pro debut (since 1958) at 26 basho
 - Aminishiki now has 889 career wins, which moves him to within 25 wins of 7th place Wakanosato at 914
 - Aminishiki now has 1758 career bouts, which moves him to within 37 bouts of 3rd place Terao at 1795
 - Kotoshogiku is the surprise entry into 10th place on the all time makuuchi bouts list at 1186, beating Tosanoumi who was 1183. Most importantly though Hakuho had 1176 bouts before the basho but having gone kyujo allowed the Geek to pass him as well
 - Hakuho is now tied 8th place with Wakanosato for 87 basho in makuuchi. Ahead of him is Kotonowaka for 90 basho
 - Hakuho extends the yokozuna basho record to 68
 - Aminishiki now has 113 basho as a sekitori. Ahead of him in 2nd place is Kyokutenho at 115
 - Takekaze enters the most basho as sekitori list in a 10th place tie with Tosanoumi at 97
 - Hanakaze moves to his 196th career basho as an active rikishi
 - 3 new entrants on the most career basho list to make it a 5 way tie for 10th place: Isenohana, Tenichi, Terunosato
 - Mitakeumi is now on the most consecutive basho in sanyaku list for a 5 way tie at 11. Depending on how the banzuke committee treats him next basho we could see him getting a 12th consecutive basho
 - Toyonoshima enters the record book for 6th oldest return to the juryo (since 1958) at 35 years, 4 months

Edited November 26, 2018 by WAKATAKE

[Kintamayama 44,347]

4 hours ago, apraxin said:

Oof - the post-basho YDC meeting today handed down a formal resolution of 'Encouragement' for Kisenosato, chairman Kitamura citing his performance and saying that he should be showing physical strength and ability comensurate with his position and 'the disappointment of the fans who had earnestly hoped for his recovery at the Kyushu basho was great':

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20181126/k10011723551000.html

Sounds like they may be running out of patience.

 

On the contrary- they sound that they are very lenient in this. They chose the lightest one between "encouragement", "caution" and "intai suggestion". "We definitely will not pressure him to retire at this point.." said one member. This whole YDC Kyushu thing never happens. This time they were there in full force, so they had a meeting as well, after watching the last day's action. "There was a lot of excitement without any Yokozunae. So much so that people may be saying 'Maybe we don't need any Yokozuna..' " said chairman Kitamura.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Akinomaki 39,758]

Takakeisho appeared live on a whole bunch of wide shows which had many hours about his yusho today.

This channel has CM cut HD versions of nearly all of them https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS6EsIRjI2JY4zY0UBG36Xg/videos

Takanohana published a message for Takakeisho, which was read on Viking http://www.daily.co.jp/general/2018/11/26/0011852894.shtml

I haven't found the article itself yet, apparently on a column Taka has in a sports paper.

Takakeisho had said about his poker face also at the banzai with his supporters "Laughing is unnecessary, because I'm a rikishi." http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2018/11/26/kiji/20181126s00005000121000c.html

But asked again on Viking if he laughs (at all), he replied "I laugh".

The wide shows also focus on his father, who with his kyokushin karate background produced the initial karate background of Takakeisho (another thing he shares with Chiyotaikai), and pushed him forward in sumo

- the family spent up to 300 000 yen a month on food http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2018/11/26/kiji/20181126s00005000128000c.html

Edited November 26, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

15 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

As for Takakeisho.  At this stage, he is by all appearances completely devoid of injury.  When was the last time you saw a Top Division wrestler without some taping, supporter, or metal brace?  Yeah, there have been one or two.  But the fact that Takakeisho isn't one of them suggests to me that his body type (i.e., short, strong limbs) is well suited to take the punishing effects of sumo wrestling.

Might have something to do with being the youngest?

[apraxin 56]

5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

On the contrary- they sound that they are very lenient in this. They chose the lightest one between "encouragement", "caution" and "intai suggestion". "We definitely will not pressure him to retire at this point.." said one member. This whole YDC Kyushu thing never happens. This time they were there in full force, so they had a meeting as well, after watching the last day's action. "There was a lot of excitement without any Yokozunae. So much so that people may be saying 'Maybe we don't need any Yokozuna..' " said chairman Kitamura.

I just see it as being particularly worrisome for Kise. My understanding is that if the YDC is going on record with an official Encouragement, it's them gently clearing their collective throat and indicating to the Encouraged that there could be more to come if they don't see improvement. Which isn't a huge deal if it's one basho of un yokozuna-like sumo to cover an injury, or a lack of hinkaku etc., but given the length of Kise's ongoing injury, the way his basho went so horribly, and how pressure and expectation have more often seemed to be a demotivator than a motivator for him, it seems somewhat ominous for his future. 

[Amamaniac 2,078]

30 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Might have something to do with being the youngest?

That is of course a valid point.  But look at images of Onosho (i.e., taped ankle(s), taped wrist(s)).  He is just one month older than Takakeisho.  Just saying.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

9 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

That is of course a valid point.  But look at images of Onosho (i.e., taped ankle(s), taped wrist(s)).  He is just one month older than Takakeisho.  Just saying.

They're almost exactly the same size as each other too. Very similar body shapes.

[yorikiried by fate 1,988]

15 hours ago, Kotomiyama said:

I agree with the opinion that he can be Ozeki in the future, but no more.

 

Sentences like these always remind me of my own prediction that Hakuho would maybe manage 12-15 career yusho max.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

16 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

They're almost exactly the same size as each other too. Very similar body shapes.

Actually, I'd be interested in knowing their respective arm lengths (i.e., reach).  My impression is that Takakeisho's is somewhat shorter.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Amamaniac

[Eikokurai 3,433]

37 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Actually, I'd be interesting in knowing their respective arm lengths (i.e., reach).  My impression is that Takakeisho's is somewhat shorter.

I’ve often wondered why reach isn’t something measured in the annual health check when oshi-sumo is one of the two core styles. It seems like such a useful data point. Then again, maybe that’s the reason. Perhaps they want rikishi working on their strategies based on what they see, not playing the numbers, although favourite grips are usually known and that would seem to give a similar advantage to the yotsu specialists. Ergo my speculation is likely nonsense.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Eikokurai

[Amamaniac 2,078]

9 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I’ve often wondered why reach isn’t something measured in the annual health check when oshi-sumo is one of the two core styles. It seems like such a useful data point. Then again, maybe that’s the reason. Perhaps they want rikishi working on their strategies based on what they see, not playing the numbers, although favourite grips are usually known and that would seem to give a similar advantage to the yotsu specialists. Ergo my speculation is likely nonsense.

Measuring grip strength would suggest that they are interested in yotsu-zumo aptitude.  While I obviously would agree that reach would make an interesting data set, it would apply to both oshi-zumo and yotsu-zumo.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

On 25/11/2018 at 09:44, Shio-kago said:

Did anyone else notice the exchange that passed between Mitakeumi and Takayasu as Takayasu got to his feet? 

Mitakeumi offered his hand and Takayasu took it, and patted it, nodding. Great empathy and respect all around; really special!

Best moment I've seen in sport in a while...

Mitakeumi seemed also to be saying: I won fair and square – sorry that it cost you a championship.  Takayasu for his part seemed to be saying: that's OK, no hard feelings.

David Benjamin states in his book on sumo that such gestures of compassion for one's opponent are "pathetic".  Perhaps this view has been debated elsewhere.

If that gesture of sportsmanship is alien to or discouraged by sumo traditionalists, one might argue that what happened after that bout was more one half-Filipino respecting another half-Filipino.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Amamaniac

[Asojima 2,870]

2 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Sentences like these always remind me of my own prediction that Hakuho would maybe manage 12-15 career yusho max.

That is better than my prediction.  I thought Hakuho would be a "perpetual sekiwake" like Wakanosato. 

[Kintamayama 44,347]

3 hours ago, apraxin said:

I just see it as being particularly worrisome for Kise. My understanding is that if the YDC is going on record with an official Encouragement, it's them gently clearing their collective throat and indicating to the Encouraged that there could be more to come if they don't see improvement. Which isn't a huge deal if it's one basho of un yokozuna-like sumo to cover an injury, or a lack of hinkaku etc., but given the length of Kise's ongoing injury, the way his basho went so horribly, and how pressure and expectation have more often seemed to be a demotivator than a motivator for him, it seems somewhat ominous for his future. 

I think we're at the point where Kisenosato himself knows when it's over and he will be pulling the plug himself.

[lackmaker 431]

50 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

David Benjamin states in his book on sumo that such gestures of compassion for one's opponent are "pathetic".  Perhaps this view has been debated elsewhere.

Defeated rikishi are quite often offered a hand up or back in by their opponent and this seems almost invariably declined. Given that attitude it's a wonder the gesture is continued at all. 

[Dapeng 232]

3 hours ago, apraxin said:

I just see it as being particularly worrisome for Kise. My understanding is that if the YDC is going on record with an official Encouragement, it's them gently clearing their collective throat and indicating to the Encouraged that there could be more to come if they don't see improvement. Which isn't a huge deal if it's one basho of un yokozuna-like sumo to cover an injury, or a lack of hinkaku etc., but given the length of Kise's ongoing injury, the way his basho went so horribly, and how pressure and expectation have more often seemed to be a demotivator than a motivator for him, it seems somewhat ominous for his future. 

Seems he will not attend the winter exhibition tour. He will probably kyujo from January basho too. 

[Akinomaki 39,758]

23 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Onomatsu chief shimpan is cautious about declaring the ozeki run open, unlike PR man Shibatayama days ago. "Looking at the wins and the content of the sumo. (... the possibility is) not 0."

Hakkaku rijicho similar: "After watching next basho. I want to see a basho with all yokozuna."

http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2018112500506&g=spo

Nikkan reports even harsher words http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201811260000165.html

Onomatsu: "Basically 10 wins is the start" "If nothing extraordinary happens, no one will call for ozeki promotion next basho."

Hakkaku: "Depending on the result he delivers next basho, he'll become a contender for ozeki, won't he?"

 

Takakeisho is some years behind his schedule from primary school graduation:

17y juryo (made it age 19), 18y sanyaku (->21) , 20y yokozuna (at that pace he will make it at age 24) - at least 35 yusho

 

o

[Shio-kago 180]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

Mitakeumi seemed also to be saying: I won fair and square – sorry that it cost you a championship.  Takayasu for his part seemed to be saying: that's OK, no hard feelings.

David Benjamin states in his book on sumo that such gestures of compassion for one's opponent are "pathetic".  Perhaps this view has been debated elsewhere.

If that gesture of sportsmanship is alien to or discouraged by sumo traditionalists, one might argue that what happened after that bout was more one half-Filipino respecting another half-Filipino.

Mr. Benjamin is welcome to think what he likes about it, of course; I'm an Oregonian and I like that sort of thing very much.

What do you think of it yourself, Amamaniac? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[robnplunder 974]

4 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Sentences like these always remind me of my own prediction that Hakuho would maybe manage 12-15 career yusho max.

You only got "max" part wrong.  I predicted Takayasu to beat Mita, and Takakeisho to lose on 15th day for Takayasu's 1st yusho.  I've (only) got two things wrong. 

[robnplunder 974]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Mitakeumi seemed also to be saying: I won fair and square – sorry that it cost you a championship.  Takayasu for his part seemed to be saying: that's OK, no hard feelings.

David Benjamin states in his book on sumo that such gestures of compassion for one's opponent are "pathetic".  Perhaps this view has been debated elsewhere.

If that gesture of sportsmanship is alien to or discouraged by sumo traditionalists, one might argue that what happened after that bout was more one half-Filipino respecting another half-Filipino.

Yeah, I got that about Mita & Takayasu after the bout.  That was very nice and I really liked it.  I don't want to see it every day but this was one occasion which merited the gesture.

If David Benjamin states that sort of thing is pathetic, he's being pathetic.  I am sure he wouldn't mean it in the case of Mita & Taka as there was a big story behind their match (1st ever yusho for Takayasu, Mita's sanyukship at the stake, their both being half-philipino, etc..

 

[lackmaker 431]

I'm not clear whether David Benjamin is stating his belief or that its considered pathetic in the sumo world.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

1 hour ago, Shio-kago said:

3 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Mitakeumi seemed also to be saying: I won fair and square – sorry that it cost you a championship.  Takayasu for his part seemed to be saying: that's OK, no hard feelings.

David Benjamin states in his book on sumo that such gestures of compassion for one's opponent are "pathetic".  Perhaps this view has been debated elsewhere.

If that gesture of sportsmanship is alien to or discouraged by sumo traditionalists, one might argue that what happened after that bout was more one half-Filipino respecting another half-Filipino.

Mr. Benjamin is welcome to think what he likes about it, of course; I'm an Oregonian and I like that sort of thing very much.

What do you think of it yourself, Amamaniac? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

For the half dozen or so years that I have been following sumo, I have seen time and time again winning wrestlers offering to assist their "fallen" opponents to get back up.  But in most of those cases, the losing wrestler prefers to get back up by themselves (on their own steam, as it were) and refuses such offers.  I have the feeling (without any confirmation) that this is instilled in wrestlers in their daily training.   You frequently see images of sekitori kicking their rikishi stablemates while they lie exhausted on the ground during training sessions.  Warriors have to be tough, and they have to be able to take abuse.  This coincides with my potential misunderstanding of Japanese bushido.  Victors don't show delight in victory, nor do they show mercy to their fallen foes.

But despite that, semi-regularly, you do see wrestlers going out of their way to prevent their opponents from falling down off the ring once they've been forced out.  This kind of consideration probably stems from the realisation that serious injuries can happen in such falls, and they hope that the same consideration will be extended to them when they are in the same position.  Only when a wrestler is pissed off will he shove his opponent down off the ring with a dameoshi.  Although, that is another topic, it is somewhat related in my mind.  Even though the NSK frowns on dameoshi, I know certain Japanese fans who actually respect wrestlers more for using it (Asashoryu had plenty of fans in part for his unrestrained shows of dominance).

Sumo is a sport, although purists would dispute that to a certain degree.  As a sport, sportsmanship is highly valued – hence the positive response from sumoforum members to the gesture between Mitakeumi and Takayasu in the ring.  But there is also a cultural value in discouraging this sort of kindness between sumo wrestlers, since a spirit of pure competitiveness has to be maintained to achieve true, unrestrained martial battles.

That's my 2 cents.  Hopefully, members of this forum will set me straight on this.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

8 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

the family spent up to 300 000 yen a month on food

Any details on how large his family is?  I found it strange that his mother was not present at the Kokugikan for his first championship.  And ¥300,000 is enough for some prime wagyu beef...

[Akinomaki 39,758]

17 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Any details on how large his family is?  I found it strange that his mother was not present at the Kokugikan for his first championship.  And ¥300,000 is enough for some prime wagyu beef...

His mother was in the shitaku-beya for a family photo shoot with the cup - I had no time today to add the new pics. No mention of brothers or sisters on the wide shows - and there are none: http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2018/11/26/kiji/20181126s00005000121000c.html

Edited November 27, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Amamaniac 2,078]

9 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

His mother was in the shitaku-beya for a family photo shoot with the cup

It doesn't make sense that she wasn't sitting in the stadium watching her son, unless of course she was simply too nervous!  There is a possibility that she was in an adjacent box to her husband's, and NHK cameras simply didn't show her.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Amamaniac