Kyushu Basho 2018 Discussion [SPOILERS]

[dingo 1,117]

I suppose we'll have to hear confirmation from NSK, but I'd say it's safe to assume that Takakeisho's on an Ozeki run. Even the yusho interviewer was alluding to that. What the numbers will have to be is another question. 

[wys 55]

I haven't watched a single bout this tournament until day 14 when my favorite guy, Takakeisho,  lost. And then when I woke up today to find out that Takakeisho won the yusho, I felt that I must be dreaming. I never expected him to win a yusho so early in his career despite my confidence in his abilities. Hopefully he can keep this momentum going. But at the same time, it's not like it totally came out of left-field, when you look back at his career. He has won a yusho in every division he has been in, with the exception of Sandanme. Of course his yusho this time around was made easier by the absence of the yokozunas, but I only wish good things for him and most of all, that he stays injury-free, or at least, as injury-free as possible.

[Philioyamfugi 378]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0NVY-5QnAIY

Nice look at deciding bout with Takayasu from our Japaneese friend.  I enjoyed the NHK world coverage but like seeing more shiko, stare downs and kensho banners. Congrats to Takakeisho. Amazing accomplishments for a young man. 

[Dwale 419]

Unexpected end to a strange, strange basho. Congratulations to Takakeisho for his first (but probably not last) top division yusho.

Now is the time to heal injuries, refine skill-sets and build strength. 'til next time, folks, kanpai. 

[Akinomaki 39,529]

The live appearance of the yusho winner on Sunday sports had a more detailed interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q7hskNxuDE

- better videos may appear later. There the NHK announcer asked Takakeisho also about reporting the yusho to Takanohana - he did that on the phone. NHK had no interview with Takanohana about this, the wide shows will surely try to get that for tomorrow. An interview with Takakeisho's father was shown.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, Philioyamfugi said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0NVY-5QnAIY

Nice look at deciding bout with Takayasu from our Japaneese friend.  I enjoyed the NHK world coverage but like seeing more shiko, stare downs and kensho banners. Congrats to Takakeisho. Amazing accomplishments for a young man. 

I prefer the Japanese coverage, too, actually. There’s something about it that feels more ‘present’. I can’t explain it. The English commentary sort of sits over the top of the action, whereas the Japanese feels like it’s part of the scene. It’s ambience. Not sure if that makes any sense.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Eikokurai

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

5 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Yeah, Tochinoshin got robbed once, twice, thrice. Now imagine that match was deciding a kachikoshi or kadoban. Just wow.

 

4 hours ago, dingo said:

Not really. The first was an obvious matta, that it wasn't called earlier doesn't make it less so. The second was matta as well and finally Tochinoshin touched out first, so I don't see how he was robbed. 

But wow, what a finale. Just like Takakeisho after his bout, I was absolutely expecting a playoff. However Mitakeumi wasn't about to do some lethargic sumo - I guess he felt his pride as a sekiwake (and former Ozeki candidate) was on the line. I do feel bad for Takayasu since somehow it felt it was his turn, but in the end he's the one who lost it. Well done to Takakeisho, he most definitely deserves the yusho. 

And many thanks to Philioyamfugi for mentioning that NHK world is broadcasting the final hour - I had a very enjoyable and tense morning. 

That's true. Start one and two were both matta. Start one was a huge gyoji mistake, and now you have two tired rikishi (with possibly aggravated injuries). Start two was just Shohozan being lazy or playing games a second time, and cancelled Toshinoshin's legit strong tachiai. Start three you've got an already injured and frustrated ozeki now having to go at it again. Sometimes I wonder if they ought to adopt a rule similar to sprinting, with two false-starts and you're out. Probably not really suitable to sumo, but how about the guy who false-starts has to begin the redo with four-on-the-floor, with the one who did not false-start being able to choose when to put their hands down?

[Benevolance 2,462]

43 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

Probably not really suitable to sumo, but how about the guy who false-starts has to begin the redo with four-on-the-floor, with the one who did not false-start being able to choose when to put their hands down?

I have seen gyoji do exactly that, but it usually requires one of the rikishi to be clearly futzing around with the mattas. 

In sandanme, Masunoyama got sidestepped not once, but *twice* in his matchup today, and almost decided the next match by crushing the judge and rikishi waiting. Well, okay. Not quite.

But Narutaki sidestepped Masunoyama at the tachi-ai, and gave him a shove that failed to move Masunoyama very far. When Masunoyama came back, Narutaki did mostly the exact same thing, but wasn't taking any chances second time around and the shove with which he ejected Masunoyama from the dohyo was impressive and decisive. 

On Abema, given how much time it took Masunoyama to return to the screen, it looked like he'd been flung into the bleachers. As the pause grew, I was asking, "Is he hurt?", "Did his heart finally give out?" or "Does he have to wait for the elevator down?" But alas, another angle reveals that he barely cleared the judge ringside and took a long time to return because of the necessary apologies ringside. 

Correction: Masunoyama is in sandanme, not makushita. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Benevolance

[Gospodin 185]

1 hour ago, Otokonoyama said:

 

That's true. Start one and two were both matta. Start one was a huge gyoji mistake, and now you have two tired rikishi (with possibly aggravated injuries). Start two was just Shohozan being lazy or playing games a second time, and cancelled Toshinoshin's legit strong tachiai. Start three you've got an already injured and frustrated ozeki now having to go at it again. Sometimes I wonder if they ought to adopt a rule similar to sprinting, with two false-starts and you're out. Probably not really suitable to sumo, but how about the guy who false-starts has to begin the redo with four-on-the-floor, with the one who did not false-start being able to choose when to put their hands down?

Before that they, gyojis and shimpan should finally start calling mattas consistently between them. That alone should reduce mattas significantly. Similar to catchers´ knowledge of strike zone tendencies of baseball umpires, I´m shure rikishi know which gyoji are more "lenient" than others.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

You are quite right. Coordinating the officiating is standard practice in professional sporting organizations, and sumo lags behind in this regard.

[Shinrei 47]

6 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Ditto and he keeps his sanyuku slot albeit as Komusubi.

West Sekiwake, methinks.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=S1e&form1_wins=mk&form2_rank=S1w

But, I could be wrong...

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=s1e&form1_wins=7&form2_year=>1998

[Benihana 1,900]

1 minute ago, Shinrei said:

West Sekiwake, methinks.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=S1e&form1_wins=mk&form2_rank=S1w

But, I could be wrong...

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=s1e&form1_wins=7&form2_year=>1998

Maybe if they don't find someone for the 2nd spot. The upper M are all MK or 8-7 only, except Tamawashi with 9-6 at M2w. Since Tamawashi lost against Mita, it could be enough for him to safe his rank. S1e Takakeisho, S2w Mitakeumi, K1e Tamawashi, K1w Myogiryu.

On another note, no double-digit results from M1 to M5. I can't remember this happening in a very long time, at least not this decade.

[Shinrei 47]

21 minutes ago, Benihana said:

On another note, no double-digit results from M1 to M5. I can't remember this happening in a very long time, at least not this decade.

Actually . . . that's a common result.

Looking at the past two decades, it has happened in 37 out of 120 honbasho.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&amp;group_expand=off&amp;group_by=basho&amp;having=10&amp;form1_rank=M1-M5&amp;form1_wins=<10&amp;form1_year=>1999

Notably, in the previous honbasho, the highest ranking 10+ win Maegashira rikishi was Nishikigi at M12w.

___

And more common before then — during the previous three decades, 96 times out of 180 honbasho.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&amp;group_expand=on&amp;group_by=basho&amp;having=10&amp;form1_rank=M1-M5&amp;form1_wins=<10&amp;form1_year=1969-1998

Edited November 25, 2018 by Shinrei

[itchyknee 56]

47 minutes ago, Benihana said:

On another note, no double-digit results from M1 to M5. I can't remember this happening in a very long time, at least not this decade.

Unless I skipped over one looking for M1 to M5, the last for M1 to M4 was http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=200803

For M1-M5 the first I found (unless overlooking) was Kyushu 1992, and it too was broken by a double-digit M6w (who had better luck than this basho's M6w - 10-5 vs 5-10): http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=199211

Modifying Shinrei's query makes it easy to verify that 1992-11 and 2018-11 are the only ones in the 15 match era: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&amp;group_expand=on&amp;group_by=basho&amp;having=10&amp;form1_rank=M1-M5&amp;form1_wins=<10&amp;form1_losses=<10&amp;offset=3050

And 1959-3 is the only other result for M1-M4 in the 15 match era, though I'm not sure that the expansion of Makuuchi really makes this comparable.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by itchyknee
coincidence noted

[Benihana 1,900]

1 minute ago, Shinrei said:

Actually . . . that's a common result. In the previous honbasho, the highest ranking 10+ win Maegashira rikishi was Nishikigi at M12w.

Looking at the past two decades, it has happened in 37 out of 120 honbasho.

Both KK or MK!

[dingo 1,117]

1 hour ago, Gospodin said:

Before that they, gyojis and shimpan should finally start calling mattas consistently between them. That alone should reduce mattas significantly. Similar to catchers´ knowledge of strike zone tendencies of baseball umpires, I´m shure rikishi know which gyoji are more "lenient" than others.

I agree that unfortunately mattas are sometimes used to throw opponents off focus. I used to hate when Kisenosato was playing his matta games years ago. But I think instead of making a harsh rule the best and most satisfying remedy is if the matta-ee gives the matta-er a big and juicy henka in return. 

[Rocks 1,804]

4 hours ago, Fatbutnotsumofat said:

So, how are the Ozeki criteria again? Takakeishos last tournament was 9-6, is it enough if he has 11 wins in the next tournament? 

Such interest going forward. Hakuho won¨t be around forever, Kisenosato and Kakuryu both feel like 1-2 bad tournaments away to retiring, if Kisenosato has not already retired. Takayasu might be the next Yokozuna, when grand champions aren¨t around he performs solidly. 

I'd say he's a lock to get it with 11 wins and 10 may even be enough given his record. Out of his 12 basho in the top division he has double digit wins in 6 along with a yusho and jun-yusho.  He's won a yusho in every division except Sandanme. 10 may just be enough. Kiseonsato is done in  January, if not before, and Takayasu will be a Yokozuna some time too. So there's room at the top. 

[Shinrei 47]

13 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Both KK or MK! 

MK: which I interpret as there being at least one rikishi from M1-M5 who had 10+ losses . . . VERY common. 89 times in the past two decades. Last year, twice and both with four rikishi each.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&amp;group_by=basho&amp;having=1&amp;form1_rank=M1-M5&amp;form1_losses=10+&amp;form1_year=>1999&amp;gsort_by=basho

If you mean something else, please do elaborate.

For what it's worth, I see ZERO honbasho where ALL of the rikishi from M1-M5 had 10+ losses.

[itchyknee 56]

4 minutes ago, Shinrei said:

If you mean something else, please do elaborate.

For what it's worth, I see ZERO honbasho where ALL of the rikishi from M1-M5 had 10+ losses.

Hi Shinrei, Benihana means that no rikishi in M1-M5 has more than 9 wins or 9 losses, both (i.e. no part of the score is a double digit - all scores are 6-9, 7-8, 8-7, 9-6, with withdraws counted in the loss column).  See my post above where I modified your query.

Edited November 25, 2018 by itchyknee
minor changes

[Shinrei 47]

2 minutes ago, itchyknee said:

Hi Shinrei, Benihana means that no rikishi in M1-M5 has more than 9 wins or 9 losses, both (e.g. all scores are 6-9, 7-8, 8-7, 9-6, with withdraws counted in the loss column).  See my post above where I modified your query. 

That IS ... beyond rare. English lacks terms to describe what's between "rare" and "unique".

Thanks for the clarity.

[itchyknee 56]

1 minute ago, Shinrei said:

That IS ... beyond rare. English lacks terms to describe what's between "rare" and "unique".

Thanks for the clarity.

"Unique until today!"

[Fede 45]

How unpredictable is sumo...

I've to be honest. I don't like Takakeisho's sumo, but he is difficult to beat. This time he had a chance and he got it. Absolutely well deserved.

We'll see in the future.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Fede

[Kishinoyama 582]

A lot of talk about Takakeisho and an Ozeki run but is Takayasu on a Yokozuna run? 11-4 and now a 12-3 runner up performance. Does a yusho in January get him a Yokozuna promotion?

[dingo 1,117]

11 minutes ago, Kishinoyama said:

A lot of talk about Takakeisho and an Ozeki run but is Takayasu on a Yokozuna run? 11-4 and now a 12-3 runner up performance. Does a yusho in January get him a Yokozuna promotion?

If Kisenosato retires then yes ;)