Asashosakari

Aki Basho 2018 Discussion [SPOILERS]

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14 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Basically, he's a guy who is decidedly mediocre when compared to Yokozuna who "lucked" into an Ozeki promotion and almost lost it immediately.  If he manages double-digit wins next tournament, then we can move beyond that, but until then, he's always going to be the Ozeki who's never going anywhere.  He was so close to being the worst Ozeki ever ...

... sure ... and still, next tournament he has a shot at Yokozuna promotion!

We must not forget that Sumo matches are zero sum games - one guy winning has always a guy losing on the other side. So, the results are essentially relative. Critically depend on who else is on the Banzuke. Is the Banzuke in the Hakuho era stronger than of the Takanohana era? Difficult to say, but it appears to be an era where the top rankers are less often Kyujo on average, and are active until a relatively high age. Goeido might be lucky on certain occasions. But unlucky, in general, to have Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kakuryu, Kisenosato around for his peak period. Might have been decent Yokozuna in another era.

For myself, I enjoy Goeido as he is. On some days he shows really great Sumo, there is doubt about that. On some days he is clueless - so what?

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11 minutes ago, Andreas21 said:

Goeido might be lucky on certain occasions. But unlucky, in general... [he m]ight have been decent Yokozuna in another era.

That is not a Goeido thing. That is true for so many rikishi. If not for rikishi X, then rikishi A at rank {n} would be at rank {n+1}.

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40 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

That is not a Goeido thing. That is true for so many rikishi. If not for rikishi X, then rikishi A at rank {n} would be at rank {n+1}.

And of course it works the other way too. We could easily say that if it wasn’t for the past decade being relatively weak*, Goeido might have never made it to Ozeki.

 

*Contentious but I think in this era of low recruitment and a smaller rikishi pool (in the past there’s been more than 800 active at a time), it stands to reason that we’re seeing fewer talented boys entering the sport than in decades past and so the overall standard is lower. 

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Do any of our Spanish-speakers know a Japanese translation of rebolera?

 

(Oops, sorry, should have pined this to the video of the bout on the previous page!)

Edited by Yamanashi

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There was a statistic posted on the senshuraku broadcast regarding Hakuho.  Apparently, by winning this tournament, he surpassed Harumafuji as the fourth oldest sekitori (in the post WWII era?) to win a Top Division championship.  Hakuho is one month older than Haru was when Haru won exactly one year ago.  If he wants to become the oldest ever to win a Top Division championship, he will have to win again at the 2022 Autumn Tournament (if my calculations are correct).  Currently, the wrestler in the number one spot is Haguroyama, who was 37 years old (and 2 months) when he won his last championship.  

It is somewhat doubtful that Hakuho will keep competing until 2022, but if he hasn't retired before the 2020 Olympics, and if he wins a championship shortly after that (i.e., Aki 2020), he will push Chiyonofuji out of second place.  

There is always a goal dangling in front of Hakuho when you have as glorious a sports career as he has had...

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If my datebase scanning is accurate (do add if I overlooked someone), oldest zensho is Chiyonofuji at 34 years, 3 months, 24 days (b. June 1, 1955,  15-0 September 24, 1989).

Hakuho second with 33 years, 6 months, 13 days  (b. March 11, 1985,  15-0 September 23, 2018).

Can he post a perfect record Nagoya 2019 or later?

Edited by Onibushou
a word.
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11 minutes ago, Onibushou said:

If my datebase scanning is accurate (do add if I overlooked someone), oldest zensho is Chiyonofuji at 34 years, 3 months, 24 days (b. June 1, 1955,  15-0 September 24, 1989).

Does the database include Yokozuna Haguroyama?  According to the NHK/NSK stat, he was 37 years and 2 months old when he won his last championship, and that stat is confirmed by his Wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haguroyama_Masaji

Note that that win was a zensho yusho result.

Edited by Amamaniac

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Wow, didn't even realize his last was 15-0 as well. Thought I had scanned back through all the 15-day tournaments.  Still prior to the 6/year format though.

Guess he's the record unless you want to * it or something. Still curious to see if he can pass Chiyonofuji's mark.

Edited by Onibushou

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That was a great basho! Seems like the best in more than a year anyway. I know a lot of folks do not adore Hakuho, but I'm a big fan. He's one of the most amazing athletes I've seen in any sport, although I understand how some folks do not appreciate his gaijin attitude. For the zensho he really lucked out in one of the earlier matches; was it Mitakeumi whom he actually had his back to at one point? Smiled when he dodged that bullet.

The worst part of being a sumo fan? The Monday after the tournament ends. Sadness. No more sumo for six or seven weeks...

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34 minutes ago, Thundersnow said:

The worst part of being a sumo fan? The Monday after the tournament ends. Sadness. No more sumo for six or seven weeks...

Hence, we hang around this forum post ....:-D.

Saw a GOAT comeback and make a splash in grand style.  Yeah, I am referring to Tiger Wood.   It seems as he aged, he has gained a bit more appreciation for the fans, lost a bit of arrogance, ....   If Hak wants to be universally liked, he can learn from Tiger.   Just saying ....

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Following amasumo has really helped me get over the post-basho blues. Right now, instead of 'bleh, no sumo' it's  'major tournament upcoming!!' (the Kokutai, which grants tsukedashi status).

Plus you get a look at many future pros, which makes their ozumo careers more interesting to follow when the time comes.

Edited by Katooshu
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7 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Do any of our Spanish-speakers know a Japanese translation of rebolera?

 

(Oops, sorry, should have pined this to the video of the bout on the previous page!)

Do you mean the twist or swing (cannot find a better word) that bullfighters do? That is written with a "v" (Revolera). I have no knowledge of japanese to know a translation for that. Better just use "Olé", as that is known worldwide without a translation

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59 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Hence, we hang around this forum post ....:-D.

Saw a GOAT comeback and make a splash in grand style.  Yeah, I am referring to Tiger Wood.   It seems as he aged, he has gained a bit more appreciation for the fans, lost a bit of arrogance, ....   If Hak wants to be universally liked, he can learn from Tiger.   Just saying ....

Hak used to be the model Yokozuna behavior wise and he was never loved. He was just too dominant and was in the way of the next Japanese Yusho winner/Yokozuna. Other than that ridiculous showdown with the ringside judges I would not say his behavior has been over the top. Yes his late shoves and his elbow are a bit distasteful but he tones it down when he needs to. His slap on Kise was overblown as he did not use his elbow and why should he defer to a yok that has been given a free pass for 18 months.  I know this is an unpopular opinion but I kinda prefer this emotional/cocky Hak rather than the machine he used to be.

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Again, people bashing on Goeido for no reason, even after he has just finished second in this tournament, while the other two current Ozeki seem to be much superior and worth of the rank.

Again, with the “Lucky Promotion”, “Lucky Yusho”, “Unworthy Ozeki”

 

For the critics, here’s a quick comparison of the careers so far of the Ugly Duck and the Pretty Boy. Now tell me who has been the better one…

 

Goeido:

1 Yusho

7 Jun-Yusho

11 Sansho

In Sanyaku since May 2012

 

Ozeki run – Results against Y/O

03/2014: Y 1W/1L; O 2W/1L

05/2014: Y 1W/2L; O 1W/1L

07/2014: Y 1W/1L; O 1W/1L

End result, 7 wins and 7 losses, including 2 wins against Hakuho still on his prime

 

Tochinoshin:

1 Yusho

4 Jun-Yusho

11 Sansho

From 2008 to 2017 an upper-maegashira that only had 1 positive record in the 9 times he was in the Sanyaku

 

Ozeki run – Results against Y/O

01/2018: Y 0W/1L O 2W/0L

03/2018: Y 1W/0L O 0W/2L

05/2018: Y 1W/1L O 0W/0L

End result, 4 wins and 4 losses.

 

In conclusion, we have 2 rikishi that have been there for the same time (1 year difference), where one has been with the best for 6 years and has achieved his rank while the best were still the best, while the other has had a mediocre career except for 3 basho at a time where the best were not there anymore. Surprisingly, the latter is considered a better rikishi.

Toshi might even become Yokozuna in near future, but as per today, no one with good judgment can say Goeido has been worse.

As per Takayasu, his career is worse that these two, but he is a bit younger, so let's wait.
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Because Goeido has been up and down overall. You never know who will show up from Basho to Basho. His overall wins per basho since becoming Ozeki.

8-5-8-8-8-9-7-8-4-12-9-7-15-9-8-1-9-7-11-9-8-9-3-10-12

Not really inspiring when you look at his work overall. His best results are in the Aki basho with the other 5 being mediocre.

Maybe he is pushing a Yokozuna run to end his career (32 yo). He always just seemed to be happy to be there, doing just enough to remain as an Ozeki while not pushing for a Yokozuna title.

Edited by evilwaldo

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If memory serves, Goeidou had a minor injury towards the end of his ozeki run but stuck it out for the wins (fighting spirit), and it was three or four tournaments before he started to look better, then he got injured again and started the on-again, off-again kadoban parade. His ozeki run included 2 wins over Hakuho, which is the * on his 32 win promotion. I don't think people appreciate the significance of that fact at that time. Hakuho lost a total of *nine times* in 2014, and 3 of those losses were to Goeidou, including twice during Goeidou's ozeki-run. Goiedou's consistency as a sekiwake made it pretty clear he could handle the promotion, and his record as ozeki since isn't the best but isn't the worst. 

I like to rag on him a bit because he's my wife's favorite rikishi, and I bought his tegata. And, frankly, he could be very good, if the good Goeidou could consistently show up. But hey, that's every rikishi with a history of injuries. 

tldr; he's not as good as first-half Kaio, but he's clearly better than second-half Kaio. Plus, he can beat Hakuho. 

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4 hours ago, RPedro44 said:

From 2008 to 2017 an upper-maegashira that only had 1 positive record in the 9 times he was in the Sanyaku

 

In conclusion, we have 2 rikishi that have been there for the same time (1 year difference), where one has been with the best for 6 years and has achieved his rank while the best were still the best, while the other has had a mediocre career except for 3 basho at a time where the best were not there anymore. Surprisingly, the latter is considered a better rikishi.

Your analysis seems to have completely overlooked that in that “same time” Tochinoshin suffered a serious injury and dropped down to Makushita 55. He spent over a year* outside the top division. That’s also one of the reasons people like him: he took the hit to his ranking (and income) for the long-term benefit to his health and then worked his way back. People admire his attitude. Goeido, conversely, is seen by many to be a bit apathetic about sumo a lot of the time. When he’s on, he’s great; when he isn’t, it’s like he’d rather be at home watching on TV. For what it’s worth, I actually feel that for many people it’s less the case that they dislike Goeido and more that they’re disappointed by him. He was once the Great Japanese Hope, but as he ascended the banzuke, it was as if he realized he’d have to raise his game to take on the Mongolians and decided to settle for second best. People who wanted him make the next step may feel let down by that. I believe this to be the case because most of the criticism directed at him has only come recently. People are reacting to what they perceive as his failure to live up to expectations. Tochinoshin hasn’t (yet) shown that sort of resignation. On the contrary, he displays a lot of grit.

When fans form an opinion about an athlete, it’s not all about the cold, hard stats. Athletes, like fans, are people too.

 

*In total Goiedo has had ten more makuuchi tournaments than Tochinoshin, with all that implies for statistics and the opportunity to better them.

Edited by Eikokurai

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5 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

 Currently, the wrestler in the number one spot is Haguroyama, who was 37 years old (and 2 months) when he won his last championship.  

Kyokutenho was 37 years, eight months when he won his championship. Maybe it was oldest yokozuna? 

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8 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Kyokutenho was 37 years, eight months when he won his championship. Maybe it was oldest yokozuna? 

I thought Kyokutenho was the oldest first-time winner. There must be something wrong with the maths here. It’d be odd to specify oldest first-time and make no mention of oldest, full stop.

 

Edit: Now I see a mention of him being the oldest and oldest first-time winner ... 

Edited by Eikokurai

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2 hours ago, evilwaldo said:

Because Goeido has been up and down overall. You never know who will show up from Basho to Basho. His overall wins per basho since becoming Ozeki.

8-5-8-8-8-9-7-8-4-12-9-7-15-9-8-1-9-7-11-9-8-9-3-10-12

Not really inspiring when you look at his work overall. His best results are in the Aki basho with the other 5 being mediocre.
 

I see it differently.  I see an over achieving Ozeki fighting off kadoban after kadoban, even getting an yusho and jun-yushos here and there.    He is not a physical specimen compare to the current y/o bunch.  And yet, he gave us a zensho yusho when a Japanese yusho was a rarity.   If anything, he was unlucky to be in the era of Haruma, Hak, Kak, and Kise.   Perhaps, in another time, he'd be worthy of everyone's Ozeki and even be a yokozuna.    

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5 hours ago, robnplunder said:

.   If Hak wants to be universally liked, he can learn from Tiger.   Just saying ....

In this world their is always someone that does not like you. Hakuho will never be universally liked no matter what he does. Just reading some of the comments here will verify what I just typed.

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3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Your analysis seems to have completely overlooked...

I think the moral of this story is that all roads lead to Mount Fuji.

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36 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

I think the moral of this story is that all roads lead to Mount Fuji.

That’s a bit too cryptic for me.

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17 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

There is always a goal dangling in front of Hakuho when you have as glorious a sports career as he has had...

Oddly though, he wouldn't say what his next one was when asked during the championship interview, he dodged the question twice and didn't even seem to mention the olympics

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14 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Kyokutenho was 37 years, eight months when he won his championship. Maybe it was oldest yokozuna? 

Indeed.  All those listed were Yokozunas.  I should have specified them as such.

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