Asashosakari

Aki Basho 2018 Discussion [SPOILERS]

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

The analogy didn’t work because it drew a comparison between two things which are not currently comparable. I know what you’re driving at and I don’t want to get bogged down in the detail of what is essentially a throwaway statement, so let’s leave that there.

That aside, speaking personally I don’t see that sumo needs to change its rules regarding hand contact to the head or body. It’s been an integral part of the sport since it’s conception and offers an alternative ‘weapon’. We can agree to disagree. Ultimately neither of us gets to do anything about how sumo is run anyway. It’s all just chat.

The analogy works because you made the silly suggestion  that "doesn’t seem to materialize all that often" is justification for not bothering to do anything about something that has the intent of causing injury. My making the analogy that there are already things, like hair pulling, that are also rare but are none the less illegal makes perfect sense to show the fallacy of such a statement. It couldn't possibly work any better. If eye gouging was legal I doubt you would see many rikishi using it. It's not illegal because it doesn’t seem to materialize all that often, it's illegal because the intent is to cause injury. Hair pulls are illegal because it could be used to snap the neck. 

As far as keeping something because it's been around since conception chop blocks were an integral part of American football for decades. They were done away with nonetheless because it was too easy to use it to intentionally cause injury. It was an alternate weapon for guys who could not block a superior player to injure him and take him out of the game. Allowing someone who could not win short of injuring the other player purposefully to compete. Unless causing injury is the intent of the sport, such as boxing or MMA, you probably shouldn't be competing in it if your only means to do so is to resort to moves intended to cause injury IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Rocks said:

The analogy works because you made the silly suggestion  that "doesn’t seem to materialize all that often" is justification for not bothering to do anything about something that has the intent of causing injury. 

Actually that isn’t quite why I said that, so all of this is based on a misunderstanding. I suppose my point there was that the act you are focused really isn’t a part of sumo anyway. Harite, like Takakeisho gives, certainly are, but violent uppercuts to the chin? Not really. It feels like trying to legislate a problem that doesn’t really exist. If it is a thing, sure, then maybe it’s worth doing something about.

We got seriously sidetracked – my fault, I shouldn’t have let myself get pulled – from my point about what the etymology of the sport’s name tells us about whether hand-to-head contact belongs in sumo or not. I really was just thinking as a linguist (which I am, sort of). I think you and I were having two different conversations.

Edited by Eikokurai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

???

Have you actually shown my analogy to not work in any way? You state it didn't. The only way you rebutted it was to suggest I did not understand an uppercut to the jaw is now currently legal. An odd thing to suggest when the argument I was making was that it should be made illegal. Something which can not occur if it were not already legal. Add to that I stated already  that is is  technically within the rules in my own post and it becomes clear that is no rebuttal.  

I'm perfectly willing to let this go. But you have not engaged my argument in any meaningful way, to suggest so is ridiculous. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Actually that isn’t quite why I said that, so all of this is based on a misunderstanding. I suppose my point there was that the act you are focused really isn’t a part of sumo anyway. Harite, like Takakeisho gives, certainly are, but violent uppercuts to the chin? Not really. It feels like trying to legislate a problem that doesn’t really exist. If it is a thing, sure, then maybe it’s worth doing something about.

We got seriously sidetracked – my fault, I shouldn’t have let myself get pulled – from my point about what the etymology of the sport’s name tells us about whether hand-to-head contact belongs in sumo or not. I really was just thinking as a linguist (which I am, sort of). I think you and I were having two different conversations.

Unbelievable. Let me get this right. "doesn’t seem to materialize all that often" isn't quite what you said.  But your point is "the act you are focused really isn’t a part of sumo anyway." So the former is not what you said, despite it being a quote,  but the latter, which is simply restating the exact same thing using different words is. That's your rebuttal? Yanking people by the hair and eye gouging doesn't really exist either. That's because they were made illegal because they resulted in injury, whether rarely used or not. They are illegal now even when unintentional.  Getting clocked in the head used to be thought of as something you just shake off, no big deal. It's clear now that isn't true. Moves which are intended to cause that should be made illegal then IMO. Unless the sport specifically intends injury. Sumo doesn't. 

 

As far as the etymology of  a sports name  football is called so because you use the feet to advance the ball usually. If you kick at the ball when it's clear you could not have hit the ball and hit your opponents legs instead it results in  a foul and possible expulsion. Just because the name implies something doesn't mean a move intended to injure and  either "doesn’t seem to materialize all that often" or "isn’t a part of sumo anyway.", whichever way you choose to say it,  doesn't justify continuing it being legal. 

Hand-to-head contact belongs in sumo. I totally agree with that. That doesn't mean that unless a certain  hand to head contact was made illegal from the start it should continue to be legal. Jamming the butt of your hand, taped up to make it even more harmful no less,  upwards into the jaw of someone rushing at you is not going to force your opponent out of the ring. And the only way it makes him touch down is if you give him a concussion. By definition it is a move intended to cause injury and should now be illegal given the medical knowledge we have IMO. A cross can cause the opponent to fall sideways and down. No injury is required. That is and should remain legal. The same way pressing the hair and head, or pushing, not choking, the throat is legal but the more dangerous forms are not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Benevolance said:

 

Hang on. This needs more conspiracy. And then Kakuryu wasn't hurt, but was faking it to lull Hakuho into a false sense of security, and then he defeats Hakuho on the final day, catapulting Takayasu, Goeidou and Hakuho into a three-way playoff. All of which is intended to take the heat off of Orora's sudden intai. No cameras please. 

More conspiracy theory .... Kak won't get in the way of Hak's yusho unless Kak himself is still in yusho contention.   Hak will return the favor if the situation is reversed.  That's what they talk about in their yaocho  drinking meetings.   No Mongolian will play a spoiler against another.   That's the agreement celebrated with healthy amount of beers. Takanoiwa wouldn't go along so a beer bottle has to be broken on his head.    :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Unbelievable. Let me get this right. "doesn’t seem to materialize all that often" isn't quite what you said.  But your point is "the act you are focused really isn’t a part of sumo anyway." So the former is not what you said, despite it being a quote,  but the latter, which is simply restating the exact same thing using different words is. That's your rebuttal? Yanking people by the hair and eye gouging doesn't really exist either. That's because they were made illegal because they resulted in injury, whether rarely used or not. They are illegal now even when unintentional.  Getting clocked in the head used to be thought of as something you just shake off, no big deal. It's clear now that isn't true. Moves which are intended to cause that should be made illegal then IMO. Unless the sport specifically intends injury. Sumo doesn't. 

 

As far as the etymology of  a sports name  football is called so because you use the feet to advance the ball usually. If you kick at the ball when it's clear you could not have hit the ball and hit your opponents legs instead it results in  a foul and possible expulsion. Just because the name implies something doesn't mean a move intended to injure and  either "doesn’t seem to materialize all that often" or "isn’t a part of sumo anyway.", whichever way you choose to say it,  doesn't justify continuing it being legal. 

Hand-to-head contact belongs in sumo. I totally agree with that. That doesn't mean that unless a certain  hand to head contact was made illegal from the start it should continue to be legal. Jamming the butt of your hand, taped up to make it even more harmful no less,  upwards into the jaw of someone rushing at you is not going to force your opponent out of the ring. And the only way it makes him touch down is if you give him a concussion. By definition it is a move intended to cause injury and should now be illegal given the medical knowledge we have IMO. A cross can cause the opponent to fall sideways and down. No injury is required. That is and should remain legal. The same way pressing the hair and head, or pushing, not choking, the throat is legal but the more dangerous forms are not.

I didn’t deny saying what I said; I said you misread my intention by saying it. No matter. I’m past it now. You don’t seem to be though. Incidentally, I wasn’t actually having an argument with you. I don’t do rebuttals if I’m not in a debate. I guess you were looking for someone to debate with and I happened to be here commenting on something else, then I got sucked into a discussion about sumo as boxing. More fool me, I suppose.

P.S. Football was named football because the game was played on foot, running, not because you use the feet to play the ball. That’s why other codes use the word ‘football’ despite playing the game with the hands.

Edited by Eikokurai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

P.S. Football was named football because the game was played on foot, running, not because you use the feet to play the ball. That’s why other codes use the word ‘football’ despite playing the game with the hands.

Really? It’s often said that football/soccer started as the same thing but American football diverged as it evolved though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Really? It’s often said that football/soccer started as the same thing but American football diverged as it evolved though.

It’s contentious. There are two schools of thought, neither of which has definitive evidence, but there is a strong case for ‘football’ being a word that described games played on foot. I should have qualified my point above.

Edited by Eikokurai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

It’s contentious. There are two schools of thought, neither of which has definitive evidence, but there is a strong case for ‘football’ being a word that described games played on foot. I should have qualified my point above.

Then why state it as a fact in reply to me? And many would argue there is not only not a strong case for it, there is very little case at all. It simply a modern attempt to address an issue which never really was an issue to begin with. Explaining why modern games use the word football yet don't really use the foot much.   They have have evolved away from a lot of kicking. There used to be much more, even in American football.  There's no problem to solve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Rocks said:

There's no problem to solve.

Fine, and we'll all be happy now if you both stop trying.

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:


NuY0nuoi_o.jpeg

He looks like 650 pounds of chewed bubblegum.

Sad. (Weeping...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loved that reaction by Tokushoryu.   I thought I saw a small smile as well.   Despite today's loss to the aforementioned, I think Yago will do well in Makuuchi.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Rob S. said:

He looks like 650 pounds of chewed bubblegum.

Sad. (Weeping...)

Harsh. He’s only 644lbs. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

41 to the MF GOAT! (Dancingofjoy...)

(Dohyo-iri...)(Zabutonflying...)

Hakuho; BANzAI! BANzAI! BANzAI!

Tochi; congrats!

Ichi; gambate!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratulations, Hakuhou-daiyokozuna! He even knows how to give decent interviews! (Applauding...)(Secondprize...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tochinoshin needs no more win - 8 is enough.   Kise needs no more win.  10 is enough for a triumph return.   Mita needs one more win to keep it going.  Ichinojo needs one more win to keep his Sekiwake rank.   He is on a kachikosh run going back more than a year.   Really?  Really.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although the tournament ended one day earlier than the unstated ideal (Day 14 rather than Day 15), this was a pretty amazing day in the dohyo all around.  Mitakeumi got his KK, and did it with distinction (and with some great sumo) against Ozeki Takayasu.  Kisenosato got double digit wins, and did it with (a little at least) distinction against top-ranked Yokozuna, Kakuryu.  And Hakuho got his 1,000th Top Division win, his 41st championship, and kept his zenshoyusho hopes alive. That's what you call a win-win-win!  I couldn't have orchestrated it better myself. ;-) 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Tochinoshin needs no more win - 8 is enough.   Kise needs no more win.  10 is enough for a triumph return.   Mita needs one more win to keep it going.  Ichinojo needs one more win to keep his Sekiwake rank.   He is on a kachikosh run going back more than a year.   Really?  Really.  

Before Mitakeumi's match, NHK commentator said that ozeki run was over for him.

Edited by Isao

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a day. Mitakeumi kachikoshi, Tochinoshin kachikoshi and most of all Kise's 10th win. One more day to go with only a few things to be found out left to go (will Chiyomaru stay in makuuchi, will Kaisei or Myogiryu replace Tamawashi and komusbuki and will Ichinojo and Takakeisho swap ranks?) and its fair to say now that this has been an amazing tournament.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Isao said:

Before Mitakeumi's match, NHK commentator said that ozeki run was over for him.

Not completely over yet, if he get 9win this basho and a excellent performance (eg. yusho or 13 wins) next basho, he still can be promoted. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can Hakuho reach yokozuna 1000 wins? Just 200 wins away. If he can maintain 60-70 wins a year, it only take 3 years, i.e., by the end of 2021.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Can Hakuho reach yokozuna 1000 wins? Just 200 wins away. If he can maintain 60-70 wins a year, it only take 3 years, i.e., by the end of 2021.

The only one stopping him is himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Momentous day and momentous last match. 1000 Makuuchi wins and a 41st Yusho in the same match. It has been a privilege to watch this supreme athlete ply his trade for the past decade. It will be a long time until these records get broken (if ever). He is the sumo equivalent of Ruth, Woods, Merckx, Bradman, Gretzsky, Williams, etc - better than all the rest and just the best that his sport has ever seen.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now