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wolfgangho

foreigners?

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wolfgangho    9

is there a listing of all foreigners taking part in theclasses from amkuuchi downstairs?

have a nice basho

wolfgang

 

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Asojima    1,895
19 minutes ago, wolfgangho said:

is there a listing of all foreigners taking part in theclasses from amkuuchi downstairs?

 

Here

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bettega    280
1 hour ago, Asojima said:

That's a nice one!

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Benihana    620

That's 33 of ~680, let's say 5%. The distribution is interesting, but after giving it a thought absolutely logical.

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Yamanashi    220

Since there are 47 or so heya, and only one foreigner allowed at each (except for special cases: Aoiyama, Tochinoshin at Kasugano), there is a maximum of ~50 foreigners allowed

Wakaichiro has just turned 20; will he have to make the citizenship decision soon?

 

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Gurowake    1,638

Furanshisu is taking up a foreigner spot?  I assumed he had a close enough connection to Japan to not be labeled a foreigner.  He doesn't seem nearly good enough for a shisho to be using his foreigner spot on.

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Rocks    877
4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Since there are 47 or so heya, and only one foreigner allowed at each (except for special cases: Aoiyama, Tochinoshin at Kasugano), there is a maximum of ~50 foreigners allowed

Wakaichiro has just turned 20; will he have to make the citizenship decision soon?

 

Already has it through his mother. He doesn't count as a foreigner. 

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Gurowake    1,638
3 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Already has it through his mother. He doesn't count as a foreigner. 

I think the issue he's referring to is that he has (or had) dual citizenship, which is not allowed by Japan after you come of age (currently 20 years).  If you hold two citizenships by birth, you're at least supposed to declare you're only keeping Japanese citizenship.  Or so I've heard.

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Rocks    877
1 minute ago, Gurowake said:

I think the issue he's referring to is that he has (or had) dual citizenship, which is not allowed by Japan after you come of age (currently 20 years).  If you hold two citizenships by birth, you're at least supposed to declare you're only keeping Japanese citizenship.  Or so I've heard.

Problem is there isn't much they can do about it.  He has make a declaration of choice before he's 22. The US totally ignores these things and do not revoke citizenship based on it. 

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Tsuchinoninjin    296

I guess that brings up another question, does someone who enters as Japanese citizenship then revoked become a foreigner under the foreigner rule? Or can they go over like Aoiyama?

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Rocks    877
1 minute ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I know at least one person who enters Japan on his Japanese passport and US on his American passport and he's 38 so...

Yes, after declaring for Japan they will not admit you in with anything except the Japanese passport. Japan will ignore any attempts by foreign governments to aid you if you get in trouble in Japan too.   But they can not seize your US passport even if you bring it to Japan as it's is US property.

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Gurowake    1,638
11 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I know at least one person who enters Japan on his Japanese passport and US on his American passport and he's 38 so...

That's why I said "supposed to".  There's not much they can do to enforce it if you're discreet enough.  You might be forced to make a statement that, for Japanese purposes, renounces your other citizenship, but at least for the US, you can only revoke your citizenship in a very specific way and they make people jump through hoops to do so (because it's often done to avoid the US's worldwide taxation scheme on its citizens).  A declaration to the Japanese is not sufficient for the US, but is for Japan, so long as you don't make it obvious to some official who could revoke your citizenship that you've still been using your other citizenship.

Edited by Gurowake
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Rocks    877
2 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I guess that brings up another question, does someone who enters as Japanese citizenship then revoked become a foreigner under the foreigner rule? Or can they go over like Aoiyama?

I don't know if the Japanese even revoke like that. Maybe in the case of fraud during naturalization. In the case of it happening I am sure they would exile the person and ban them from ever returning immediately. 

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Asashosakari    10,994
4 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I guess that brings up another question, does someone who enters as Japanese citizenship then revoked become a foreigner under the foreigner rule? Or can they go over like Aoiyama?

If the Kyokai is consistent in the application of their rules, then coming in with Japanese citizenship should permanently not occupy a foreigner slot, even if the rikishi decides to give it up later. I doubt they've really thought about the question though.

(I don't understand the Aoiyama reference.)

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WAKATAKE    967
4 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I guess that brings up another question, does someone who enters as Japanese citizenship then revoked become a foreigner under the foreigner rule? Or can they go over like Aoiyama?

The reason why Kasugano beya has both Tochinoshin and Aoiyama is because Aoiyama was from a stable that merged with Kasugano. Same thing happened with Tomozuna beya they had Kaisei and then they they inherited Kyokushuho (and Kyokutenho though he was technically Japanese) from Oshima beya after it merged.

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Atenzan    758
14 hours ago, Gurowake said:

the US's worldwide taxation scheme on its citizens

Just read up on this. A US citizen residing outside the USA is therefore subject to income tax in two countries? Sounds like something of a gouge to me. 

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Gurowake    1,638
14 minutes ago, Atenzan said:

Just read up on this. A US citizen residing outside the USA is therefore subject to income tax in two countries? Sounds like something of a gouge to me. 

Yes, US citizens are subject to tax on their worldwide income.  The only issue this causes for most people is to file a tax return saying why they don't owe anything, but most people need to have someone do that for them, and that costs money.  The main way around it is that you can exclude for US taxation up to around $100,000 of foreign earned income.  The other way is to take the Foreign Tax Credit, which decreases your US tax liability by the amount of foreign income tax you paid, up to the amount that you would have been taxed in the US had that income been from a US source.  Calculating the cap for the year is a complete nightmare for people who have some foreign and some US income, and while the way that the system is designed is theoretically fair, it can give some very weird results in corner cases because of all the numbers that can get thrown in to the calculation.  For someone with all foreign income, the calculation is not that big of a deal to accountants, but it still would be beyond many people's ability.  But if you're in the situation where you're earning over $100,000 or have enough passive income such that you have a US tax liability based solely on foreign income, they figure you can afford to pay someone to figure it out for you.  I assume the reason that the US does this is to prevent people from being tax exiles while retaining US Citizenship, which is (or at least was) extremely useful all over the world.  Because of the foreign tax credit, it's not really much of a gouge - it simply means people are at minimum taxed at the US rates regardless of where the money is earned.

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Marcus33    7
6 hours ago, Atenzan said:

Just read up on this. A US citizen residing outside the USA is therefore subject to income tax in two countries? Sounds like something of a gouge to me. 

If you are a US citizen living in another country, there is a limit on how many days per year you may return to the US( I think it's 35). As long as you do not exceed this limit, you are not liable for US income taxes.

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2 hours ago, Marcus33 said:

If you are a US citizen living in another country, there is a limit on how many days per year you may return to the US( I think it's 35). As long as you do not exceed this limit, you are not liable for US income taxes.

Really? You may want to talk to US citizens who currently pay taxes in two countries. It is based on what you earn that dictates the paying or not.

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Tsuchinoninjin    296
19 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

The reason why Kasugano beya has both Tochinoshin and Aoiyama is because Aoiyama was from a stable that merged with Kasugano. Same thing happened with Tomozuna beya they had Kaisei and then they they inherited Kyokushuho (and Kyokutenho though he was technically Japanese) from Oshima beya after it merged.

Right, so my Aoiyama reference is would they just treat the situation (losing citizenship) the same as them instead of rigidly adhering to the rule and kicking one out.

I guess the major issue is losing citizenship and having no visa at that moment and getting expelled for working.

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Marcus33    7
1 hour ago, specialweek 2 said:

Really? You may want to talk to US citizens who currently pay taxes in two countries. It is based on what you earn that dictates the paying or not.

http://www.expatyourself.com/2013/04/330-days-outside-the-us/ 

"If you are a US citizen, living outside the US, then all your income may not be taxed. Yes, if you live as an expat, then at tax filing time, you can file the “Foreign Income Exclusion” form, number 2555.

But, there’s a catch. (Isn’t there always a catch?) The catch is, you must really be living outside the United States for 90% or more of the time (that works to be 330 days or more). It doesn’t mean just calling your expat home your “Primary residence.” It doesn’t mean come home again for “just” the summer months. Nope, for your income to be excluded from tax, you must stay clear of the US for 330 days or more."

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that when my sister runs up against the time limit she has to stay out of the US until the year is over.

Edited by Marcus33

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Asashosakari    10,994
1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Right, so my Aoiyama reference is would they just treat the situation (losing citizenship) the same as them instead of rigidly adhering to the rule and kicking one out.

What rule? There is no "there can only be one foreigner in a stable" rule and there never has been. The restrictions are strictly on recruiting additional foreign rikishi. That may have the consequence that there's generally only one foreigner in each stable, but that's not itself part of the restriction.

Anyway, we may have already seen a case where a rikishi entered on his Japanese citizenship and later relinquished it (but I have no proof, since no details were made public). Azumao joined with a Tokyo-shusshin and then switched to Brazil-shusshin shortly after his 21st birthday. Tamanoi-beya later recruited another Brazilian while Azumao was still part of the stable.

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Gurowake    1,638
On 7/12/2018 at 22:27, Marcus33 said:

http://www.expatyourself.com/2013/04/330-days-outside-the-us/ 

"If you are a US citizen, living outside the US, then all your income may not be taxed. Yes, if you live as an expat, then at tax filing time, you can file the “Foreign Income Exclusion” form, number 2555.

But, there’s a catch. (Isn’t there always a catch?) The catch is, you must really be living outside the United States for 90% or more of the time (that works to be 330 days or more). It doesn’t mean just calling your expat home your “Primary residence.” It doesn’t mean come home again for “just” the summer months. Nope, for your income to be excluded from tax, you must stay clear of the US for 330 days or more."

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that when my sister runs up against the time limit she has to stay out of the US until the year is over.

I can very well say that I *am* an expert, at least by certification, and that while what that website said is definitely not wrong, you're misinterpreting it.

Form 2555 is the "Foreign Earned Income Exclusion".  That exclusion requires you meet the requisite standards for actually being considered to not be living in the United States.  There are two ways to fulfill that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_resident_test

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_presence_test

That website is referring to the latter, but the former is a bit different in how it works.  If you really care, read the articles I linked.  You can also check out https://www.irs.gov/publications/p54#en_US_2017_publink100047413 for basically all the rules.  The Bona Fide resident test may seem like it requires as much time outside the US as the physical presence test, especially considering years in the middle of a foreign assignment, but there's nothing in the Bona Fide presence test that requires you spend a certain number of days outside the US.  What matters then is where you are a resident of.  You might end up taking business trips to the US often enough to not qualify for the physical presence test, but if you always immediately leave the US after those trips and return to your country of residence, you can still be a Bona Fide resident of a foreign country.

Additionally, that is only the FEIC that I mentioned before.  It does nothing about unearned income* or income above the threshold that I mentioned before, which comprises most of the income of the people the US is intending to tax with its worldwide scheme.  It does mean if you're an average Joe you won't be paying US taxes while working abroad, but that doesn't mean that every single expat just has to stay away to avoid US income taxes.

 

*Meaning interest, dividends, other profits from businesses you do not participate in running, rent received, etc.  Obviously in some sense you earned that money because you invested capital to get that income, but that's not the sense that "earned" means in this case.

Edited by Gurowake
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