Terunofuji Watch

[since_94 650]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

That’s my point. He needs to figure out what he can do for the rest of his life, because right now he doesn’t have a future in sumo. He might get a few more years in the ring, but then what? He’ll be a few years older and in the same position as if he quit right now and found a new path for himself. Harumafuji qualified as a police officer apparently, ready for his post-sumo life. And he’s a former Yokozuna. Terunofuji would be much better off putting sumo behind him at the age of 27 than he will at, say, 30. He’s still young enough that he can retrain in something new. 

As for kabu, he can actually stay on for three years as an ex-Ozeki, but he’s not a Japanese citizen and so, again, it looks like his future is outside of sumo. 

That seems like very sound advice

[robnplunder 978]

16 hours ago, Naganoyama said:

Would you really wish injury on someone? That's not cool.

No, not really.  Just a cynical, sarcastic remark.

[robnplunder 978]

12 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

The dangers of blathering on the internet without engaging one's brain first.

There are a lot of obnoxious posts in the internet like the one you just posted here.   If you can't see the sarcasm behind a post, don't assume the worst.  Most of us  can't write as eloquently as you always do.

Edited January 14, 2019 by robnplunder

[robnplunder 978]

14 hours ago, Atenzan said:

Why would you want him to be kyujo anyway? 

And I second the thought that wishing an injury on someone isn't cool. 

Just a sarcastic remark which is not so uncommon on internet forums like this one or others for that matter.  As for Hattorizakura, I along with a few others in this forum think he does disservice to sumo and is danger to himself being injured.   

[Gurowake 4,154]

12 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Minor correction: Kotoshogiku was Sekiwake and needed a tenth win to return automatically to Ozeki. Terunofuji’s henka led to the sixth defeat that denied him that chance. So it was actually more costly than a mere kadoban situation. 

While, if he had managed 10 wins in that tournament, Kotoshogiku would have had his Ozeki rank for a few more tournaments, with another demotion and immediate repromotion if he had had the same results he had in reality, he also had 2 kinboshi during that time.  If he sticks around as long as Aminishiki, those two kinboshi will likely be worth a lot more than a few basho at Ozeki in terms of money, although I'm not inclined to do the math.  So in the long run it may have been better for him, although he obviously couldn't know that at the time.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Gurowake

[Eikokurai 3,437]

10 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

While, if he had managed 10 wins in that tournament, Kotoshogiku would have had his Ozeki rank for a few more tournaments, with another demotion and immediate repromotion if he had had the same results he had in reality, he also had 2 kinboshi during that time.  If he sticks around as long as Aminishiki, those two kinboshi will likely be worth a lot more than a few basho at Ozeki in terms of money, although I'm not inclined to do the math.  So in the long run it may have been better for him, although he obviously couldn't know that at the time.

Haha. That’s another way of interpreting ‘cost’. :)

[robnplunder 978]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

While, if he had managed 10 wins in that tournament, Kotoshogiku would have had his Ozeki rank for a few more tournaments, with another demotion and immediate repromotion if he had had the same results he had in reality, he also had 2 kinboshi during that time.  If he sticks around as long as Aminishiki, those two kinboshi will likely be worth a lot more than a few basho at Ozeki in terms of money, although I'm not inclined to do the math.  So in the long run it may have been better for him, although he obviously couldn't know that at the time.

When Mr. Henka'd to beat Koto, I was also pretty mad for Koto.  But given his subsequent performances, I'd doubt if Koto could held on to his Ozekiship for long.    I hate henkas done by sanyaku but most rikishi seem to do it now and then, even the yokozuna.   If henka is looked down upon by high ranked rikishi, that tradition does not seem to exist anymore.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

17 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

When Mr. Henka'd to beat Koto, I was also pretty mad for Koto.  But given his subsequent performances, I'd doubt if Koto could held on to his Ozekiship for long.    I hate henkas done by sanyaku but most rikishi seem to do it now and then, even the yokozuna.   If henka is looked down upon by high ranked rikishi, that tradition does not seem to exist anymore.

He’d already lost his Ozeki rank at that point, of course, and there was no guarantee that he’d get the 10th win to return. I don’t think people were fussed so much about him losing the rank. What annoyed people was that his fate was taken out of his hands. Had Terunofuji beaten him in a chest-to-chest battle nobody would have been bitter. Disappointed for Giku, yes, but it would have been accepted as fair and square. 

[robnplunder 978]

9 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

He’d already lost his Ozeki rank at that point, of course, and there was no guarantee that he’d get the 10th win to return. I don’t think people were fussed so much about him losing the rank. What annoyed people was that his fate was taken out of his hands. Had Terunofuji beaten him in a chest-to-chest battle nobody would have been bitter. Disappointed for Giku, yes, but it would have been accepted as fair and square. 

Right you are.   Even if Giku got his Ozekiship back, I don't believe he'd held on to it.   It was a shame (and a sad note for sumo) for Koto to lose by Teru's henka.  Koto was least expecting it and I felt Teru just robbed him of his Ozeki return.   I never liked Teru to begin with so my disappointment was even more amplified.  But when Hak, Kak, Goeido, and the like are doing henkas .... well, the tradition is in the pits.   Although, when Kise henka'd against Teru for his 2nd yusho run, that was justice well served.   

[Eikokurai 3,437]

3 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Right you are.   Even if Giku got his Ozekiship back, I don't believe he'd held on to it.   It was a shame (and a sad note for sumo) for Koto to lose by Teru's henka.  Koto was least expecting it and I felt Teru just robbed him of his Ozeki return.   I never liked Teru to begin with so my disappointment was even more amplified.  But when Hak, Kak, Goeido, and the like are doing henkas .... well, the tradition is in the pits.   Although, when Kise henka'd against Teru for his 2nd yusho run, that was justice well served.   

Did you ever see Hakuhou doing a henka on Harumafuji in an all-Yokozuna basho decider? I don’t recall when it was, but I do recall Harumafuji’s face as he ran off the dohyo into someone’s lap. He managed a wry smile.

[robnplunder 978]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Did you ever see Hakuhou doing a henka on Harumafuji in an all-Yokozuna basho decider? I don’t recall when it was, but I do recall Harumafuji’s face as he ran off the dohyo into someone’s lap. He managed a wry smile.

I don't remember that one but I know Hak doing henka against much lesser rikishi.   I just don't remember the names of "victims."    One of the reasons why I like Mita is that I don't remember his doing henka.   He may have done it before but I just don't remember.

[Akinomaki 41,850]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

He’d already lost his Ozeki rank at that point, of course, and there was no guarantee that he’d get the 10th win to return. I don’t think people were fussed so much about him losing the rank. What annoyed people was that his fate was taken out of his hands. Had Terunofuji beaten him in a chest-to-chest battle nobody would have been bitter. Disappointed for Giku, yes, but it would have been accepted as fair and square. 

It is usually accepted if one does a henka when as battered as Terunofuji already was at the point he beat Kotoshogiku - it just wasn't known at the time - and people only remember their feelings from before those news were reported.

[robnplunder 978]

15 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

It is usually accepted if one does a henka when as battered as Terunofuji already was at the point he beat Kotoshogiku - it just wasn't known at the time - and people only remember their feelings from before those news were reported.

Call me old school but being "battered" does not make henka by a sanyuku acceptable (perhaps, "acceptable' is too strong a sentiment). 

[Akinomaki 41,850]

20 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Call me old school but being "battered" does not make henka by a sanyuku acceptable (perhaps, "acceptable' is too strong a sentiment). 

A henka by Kise today would have been criticized, but  accepted

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

He’d already lost his Ozeki rank at that point, of course, and there was no guarantee that he’d get the 10th win to return. I don’t think people were fussed so much about him losing the rank. What annoyed people was that his fate was taken out of his hands. Had Terunofuji beaten him in a chest-to-chest battle nobody would have been bitter. Disappointed for Giku, yes, but it would have been accepted as fair and square. 

Nothing was taken out of Kotoshogiku's hands. His habit of coming in hard without watching his opponent at tachiai is a technical vulnerability that was able to be exploited for a win.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

30 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

A henka by Kise today would have been criticized, but  accepted

He’s been sidesteping the retirement question for the past year, so why not do one in the ring?

[Eikokurai 3,437]

12 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

Nothing was taken out of Kotoshogiku's hands. His habit of coming in hard without watching his opponent at tachiai is a technical vulnerability that was able to be exploited for a win.

I understand that, but fans want to see an actual contest, not a *clever* exploitation of a legal loophole. I don’t feel it’s unreasonable for fans to feel Giku was robbed of his chance to fight for his rank. And context is everything too. Fans expect Terunofuji – an Ozeki – to show a bit more respect to a recent peer (his own injury situation* notwithstanding).

Anyway, what’s done is done and sumo fans will argue the merits or otherwise of henka until the sport no longer exists. And probably even after that.

*To be honest, given what we’ve learned since, I’m less convinced that it was a clever tactical move by Terunofuji and more an act of necessity because of his own mobility issues. Giku wasn’t outthought so much as Teru did only what his body would let him do.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

34 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I understand that, but fans want to see an actual contest, not a *clever* exploitation of a legal loophole. I don’t feel it’s unreasonable for fans to feel Giku was robbed of his chance to fight for his rank. And context is everything too. Fans expect Terunofuji – an Ozeki – to show a bit more respect to a recent peer (his own injury situation* notwithstanding).

Anyway, what’s done is done and sumo fans will argue the merits or otherwise of henka until the sport no longer exists. And probably even after that.

*To be honest, given what we’ve learned since, I’m less convinced that it was a clever tactical move by Terunofuji and more an act of necessity because of his own mobility issues. Giku wasn’t outthought so much as Teru did only what his body would let him do.

Yes, the context is he has 14 previous days that tournament to fight for his rank. And his badly injured opponent was also fighting for his own rank. There was no disrespect shown by either man, only the patented Geek pout he displays anytime he gets caught not looking where he's going. That was a pretty critical moment, yet he did not find it necessary to be mindful of a well-known vulnerability. Respect for going out on his shield, but Kakuryu showed yesterday how watching where one is going at tachiai can make henka backfire on the opponent.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Otokonoyama

[Naganoyama 6,043]

8 hours ago, robnplunder said:

No, not really.  Just a cynical, sarcastic remark.

OK I get that, but I think you are wrong about Hattorizakura doing a disservice to sumo. A random jonokuchi wrestler who can't get a win doesn't really make any waves. Now if a Yokozuna were unable to get a win, that would be different. Oh hang on...

[Eikokurai 3,437]

2 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Yes, the context is he has 14 previous days that tournament to fight for his rank. And his badly injured opponent was also fighting for his own rank. There was no disrespect shown by either man, only the patented Geek pout he displays anytime he gets caught not looking where he's going. That was a pretty critical moment, yet he did not find it necessary to be mindful of a well-known vulnerability. Respect for going out on his shield, but Kakuryu showed yesterday how watching where one is going at tachiai can make henka backfire on the opponent.

Perhaps I’m nitpicking, but Terunofuji wasn’t fighting for his rank by that point in the tournament. He finished runner-up on 13-2 after losing in the playoff to Kise and had wrapped his kachikoshi up by day 9.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I was under the impression he was striving for yokuzuna, and was fighting tooth and nail to achieve that. YMMV.

[CT3* 331]

17 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Nothing was taken out of Kotoshogiku's hands. His habit of coming in hard without watching his opponent at tachiai is a technical vulnerability that was able to be exploited for a win.

If memory serves, Kotoshogiku and Terunofuji had both henka'd each other in the past. I saw Terunofuji's henka that prevented the  Geekster's Ozeki return as brutal retribution and had no problem with it. 

[robnplunder 978]

Keep giving excuses for sanyaku rikishi doing henka (even yokozuna) ...     

 

In game of professional Go, another tradition filled Japanese pastime, some players are known to give up the match in order to avoid making an embarrassing move which may otherwise can turn the game around.    There are injured rikishi who refuses to do henkas despite the tactical advantage it may give him.   I just like to believe that there are more of them than Haks of the world who would stoop low to do henkas when his lesser opponent least expects it.

Edited January 15, 2019 by robnplunder

[Jakusotsu 6,401]

4 hours ago, robnplunder said:

In game of professional Go, another tradition filled Japanese pastime, some players are known to give up the match in order to avoid making an embarrassing move which may otherwise can turn the game around.

Really?? Intriguing, and hard to believe.

[robnplunder 978]

12 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Really?? Intriguing, and hard to believe.

Another dying/dead tradition.  Realized it right after I posted it.