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Basho Talk Natsu 2018 (SPOILERS)

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Tochinoshin was 4-11 at M1 less than a year ago.  And then only 9-6 at M6.  I guess he finally got over all the injuries?  I can hardly believe it.  Takayasu's sudden rise from mediocre to Ozeki wasn't as dramatic, given he failed the first time he was close, but also was not of the variety that we're used to seeing where guys either come up quickly and hit Ozeki within the year of making it to the sanyaku area, or grind it out for a few years staying almost entirely in the joi before they get the good run of tournaments they need.  Takayasu and Tochinoshin, while joi regulars, didn't have the dominating performances that one would normally see from Ozeki candidates outside the joi.  It almost makes me wonder if the skill level gradient is much flatter now, and when one manages to get above a certain plateau, it's much easier to win consistently, while a few notches lower and you'll barely get KK whether you're facing the best or those in the M6 area.  Certainly the injuries of the top dogs have flattened things somewhat, but currently we've seen a lot of guys do well in the joi then rotate out and can't manage to spring right back up there against weaker competition.  There's probably injuries at play there as well, but it seems quite odd - there certainly seems to be far less stratification than usual, making it hard to pick winners consistently. 

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1 hour ago, Dwale said:

Was just think earlier, "I hope those fellas get hazard pay."

This is probably NSK's master plan to get rid of that pesky Takanohana once and for all - put him as a shinpan and have Ichinojo "accidentally" fall on him. Problem solved. Ichinojo will get to be the next yokozuna as a reward. 

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Let's see if I can post Zeus ( I hit the dang Kb limit last time).

Zeus

[Nope, now I only have 41 Kb!  Oh, well, maybe later]

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42 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Tochinoshin was 4-11 at M1 less than a year ago.  And then only 9-6 at M6.  I guess he finally got over all the injuries?  I can hardly believe it.  Takayasu's sudden rise from mediocre to Ozeki wasn't as dramatic, given he failed the first time he was close, but also was not of the variety that we're used to seeing where guys either come up quickly and hit Ozeki within the year of making it to the sanyaku area, or grind it out for a few years staying almost entirely in the joi before they get the good run of tournaments they need.  Takayasu and Tochinoshin, while joi regulars, didn't have the dominating performances that one would normally see from Ozeki candidates outside the joi.

Both made it to makuuchi at rather young ages, and the early conventional wisdom certainly was that both might have the tools to become ozeki eventually. The shine came off of both over the next few years when they repeatedly bounced off the joi in pretty bad fashion (while still being young though), and in Tochinoshin's case the injury of course eventually got in the way, too. But you never know...some young talented guys turn out to be Tochiozan, peaking relatively soon without being able to take the step to ozeki, and then the decline sets in soon as well, and others take the more scenic route and continue to improve more slowly, or in stop-and-go fashion, but for a significantly longer period.

Who knows, five years from now we might be talking about Daieisho's ozeki challenge.

Edit: For a similar case one quality step below - I started watching sumo "seriously" in mid-2002, having been interested casually since 1995 or so. At the time, Aminishiki was a skinny 23-year-old, in his second year in the top division, who had recently made his first unsuccessful trip into the joi, and to my (still pretty untrained) eyes he looked like a generic mid-maegashira for years to come, or worse if his opponents were going to figure out his small-man sumo too much. If you had told me back then that he'd finish his career having spent 15 tournaments at sekiwake and komusubi, I'd have considered that completely nuts. 

Edited by Asashosakari
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50 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

Heracles, God of strength.

IMG_20180524_234802.jpg

That was really something , watching

 

51 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

Heracles, God of strength.

IMG_20180524_234802.jpg

That was really  something watching tochinoshin  beat hakuho. I've always had the he feeling that he was so strong, he could even best hakuho in a battle of strength if he was healthy, and now he proved it. Future yokozuna if he can stay healthy.

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Just now, Asashosakari said:

Both made it to makuuchi at rather young ages though, and the early conventional wisdom certainly was that both might have the tools to become ozeki eventually. The shine went off of both over the next few years when they repeatedly bounced off the joi in pretty bad fashion, and in Tochinoshin's case the injury of course eventually got in the way, too. But you never know...some young talented guys turn out to be Tochiozan, peaking relatively soon without being able to take the step to ozeki, and then the decline sets in soon as well, and others take the more scenic route and continue to improve more slowly but for a significantly longer period.

Yeah, I have seen that the age the Takayasu and Tochinoshin got to the top portion of the Makuuchi banzuke (M3 by 23) as being a pretty good indicator of being future Ozeki, both as necessary and sufficient indicators.  Only Asasekiryu, Wakanoho, and Osunaarashi haven't been out of the retired wrestlers I've tracked going back to the days of Asashoryu, and Tochiozan isn't going to make it most likely, and Chiyootori probably won't either.  The only other rikishi to make Ozeki was someone who had no chance to hit that age mark - Kotomitsuki - and so maybe we might say Shodai, Hokutofuji, and Mitakeumi would fulfill the cut-off based on their speed to the top of the banzuke, but that's more of a judgement call.  But other than that there's a general overlap of those two sets of rikishi.  Currently we'd be looking at Ichinojo, Takakeisho, and Onosho as future Ozeki.  Makuuchi by 22 would have you also include Toyonoshima, Masunoyama, Chiyonokuni, Kotoyuki, Daieisho and Kagayaki, the latter two of which might have a reasonable chance but aren't setting the dohyo on fire right now, but no further retired rikishi.

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5 hours ago, Rocks said:

I'd agree that Arawashi's shoulder touched last but an argument can be made they were both "dead bodies"  at that point making that torinaoshi warranted.

Or just the fact that for the naked eye during the heat of the moment, both touched the ground at almost exactly the same time and simply too close too call, thus the torinaoshi as a fair outcome of the monoii. I'm not sure how much the video shinpan have a say in the matter in this case, but I'd like to think even the both rikishis feel a rematch is the best decision.

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5 hours ago, Ender Wiggin said:

Old, crusty, battered, and not mentally there goat

 

I don't think so.   Hak only lost once leading up to Tochinoshin bout.  Hak may have lost a step but not so old, crusty, battered, mentally unfit self.  Rather, Tochinoshin may be firing on all cylinders, possibly, a case of late bloomer.

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14 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

Just compare Ozeki Goeido with Sekiwake Tochinoshin. That tells a story too.

Too true. Tochinoshin is going to have to take some lessons if he's going to be a real  ozeki. 

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Does anyone know what those bandaid things Tochinoshin has on his right shoulder are about?

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Something that Tochinoshin and his shisho have in common. Shin ended up having a 25 match losing streak against Hakuho from their first meeting which stands at 2nd place. 1st place is Kitanoumi vs. Tochihikari at 29 matches. Kasugano Oyakata aka Tochinowaka had a 23 match losing streak from first meeting against Musashimaru. There is still an active streak going between Kakuryu and Takekaze, with Kakuryu having a 20-0 run against the veteran.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201805250000200.html

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So Shodai turns up for his bout against Tochinoshin but not for Hakuho then ...

 

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Tochi may be strong, but if he can't get that grip, it could go either way. He'll need to work on backup techniques if he wants to avoid what happened with Shodai today.

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On 5/24/2018 at 10:00, Jakusotsu said:

Tochinoshin is no Shodai, that's clear now.

This has a very different reading today. 

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We could have a Kettei-sen with Tochinoshin and both yokozuna (Jumpinginecstasy...)

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4 minutes ago, charliki said:

We could have a Kettei-sen with Tochinoshin and both yokozuna (Jumpinginecstasy...)

That would be a tomoesen. :)

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4 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Hoshoryu Jonidan yusho.

that was a gimmie after moriurara went kyujo :-P

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7 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

Does anyone know what those bandaid things Tochinoshin has on his right shoulder are about?

Steroid patches.

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Really bad tachai by Tochinoshin overshadowed only by his even worse response to it. Just goes to show how important having a match go the way you wanted mentally is.

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And Okinoumi come on. I mean WTH? There is no way he should be losing to Aminishiki outside of slipping and falling. 

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Great match between Jokoryu vs Wakatakakage ending in a superb utchari by Wakatakakage. The Joker has to wait at least one more basho to return to Juryo unfortunately but he looked very good in this match. I think Wakatakakage may have broke his nose of the shimpan's knee though.

 

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12 hours ago, Marcus33 said:

That was really something , watching

 

That was really  something watching tochinoshin  beat hakuho. I've always had the he feeling that he was so strong, he could even best hakuho in a battle of strength if he was healthy, and now he proved it. Future yokozuna if he can stay healthy.

its not about only tochinoshin hakuho is at his worst    last few years hakuhos strength was not that good but at his peak his strength was incredeble he won baruto kotooshu a lot of times on the belt and iam sure baruto was more powerful than todays tochinoshin

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He's still the GOAT, but Hak is looking a lot more mortal these days...

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yes he is arguably the goat  

but his belt sumo was no where near at his peak for last 4 or 5 years

around 2010 if he gets the belt then the opponets were almost done no matter how big small or who they were baruto kaiyo kotooshuu even asashoryu

back then he was much more powerful and always goes for the belt but now he rarely go for the belt because he knows he is not that good anymore on the belt

just look at the match against ikioi he cant push ikioi out of the ring that easy even if his strength is not that good he is better than the other rikishis overall

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