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Basho Talk Natsu 2018 (SPOILERS)

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The Hokutofuji ordeal really cast a shadow over the day's matches. I can't even work up the energy to be mad at Kakuryu...ok, maybe a little. But mainly just hoping Hokutofuji is going to be alright.

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Defiantly a mood since Hokutofuji got blasted, not pretty at all.Tochinoshin even looked pedestrian in victory. Mitakiumi maybe the exception. At least geek didn't get hurt. Endo put up a good fight against the Hak. 

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6 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

Tochinoshin has not only got his ten wins but remains undefeated.  At the risk of being shot down, the sumo's...a bit samey though.

Well yes, pretty irresistible.

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48 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I can see why. The idea of a Yokozuna feeling he needs to henka a M5 is just ridiculous.  It's must have been even more frustrating for the people that actually paid to be there.

To be fair, Kotoshogiku's mindless tachiai simply begged for a sidestep. He even left his arms behind when charging blindly. (Check the slomo replay.)

And I still wonder why Ryuden-Hokutofuji was called a matta at all...

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21 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

To be fair, Kotoshogiku's mindless tachiai simply begged for a sidestep. He even left his arms behind when charging blindly. (Check the slomo replay.)

And I still wonder why Ryuden-Hokutofuji was called a matta at all...

Oh I agree. I am never surprised when anyone henkas Giku. I could even understand it, while still disliking it,  for Kakuryu to do it if Giku were still an Ozeki or Kakuryu was 5-4. But as an M5 it just reflects badly on Kakuryu IMHO.

I agree there too. The first should not have been a matta. But since it was called that by the referees it's on them any stoppage resulting,  which is why I think a Draw would be warranted should Hokutofuji have declared he could not continue. How do we know Hokutofuji didn't let up slightly upon hearing the matta which caused the bad contact?

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

I had to look it up. It was the closest instance I could find to an itamiwake being called. Begs the question under what circumstances an itamiwake would or could ever be called. For what was the rule conceived in the first place?

Pretty much for situations like those, as far as I know, but back in 2005 they made a point of noting that it's no longer being handled that way.

Wasn't there a lower-division match a few years ago that failed to take place because one of the would-be participants was injured by a falling rikishi of a previous bout? Or am I mixing that up with Nishikido getting injured as shimpan?

Edited by Asashosakari

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25 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

Well yes, pretty irresistible.

;-) Yeeah, but it's like everyone in the crowd is willing him to 'come on do the lift, do the lift, go on do it do it, yay he did the lift, omg he's so strong, look at the legs flailing, can you believe he did the lift against such a massive guy, come on lift him just a bit further, wow wow, he's like a bear wow, omg I'm speechless that was amazing' every single time.  No doubt The Lift is mercilessly effective once deployed, but thinking in the long term and the scrutiny that will be paid to the quality of his wins going forward, I think he'll need to demonstrate some variety to have any sort of longevity.  That goes as much for his body as the range of skills he should demonstrate as an ozeki to meet the YDC's yard stick if he has any ambitions beyond.  As we all know, the changeable favour of the YDC isn't just a numbers game.  I am but a humble spectator, but I respect range of technique enormously.  Become too reliant on one set-piece and you become rusty on the rest; you only have to look at Hakuhou's non-harite-kachiage tachiai to see that.  Some people here are more results driven in terms of what attracts them to a rikishi and measure success, and that's fine.  I like variety because it protects against vulnerability.  To be clear, I don't intend any of this as criticism of Tochinoshin, rather tough love.

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Tochinoshin is looking like more of a yokozuna than both current ones today. Kakuryū, shamefuru dispray. Hakuhō grabbed the hair there for a moment, even though it had no effect on the bout I think.

Will root against Kakuryū now. I guess it would be nice if Tochinoshin yūshōs in a ketteisen with Hakuhō, 14–1 for both.

Barring injury Tochinoshin is an ōzeki now, I’m wondering whether he can become yokozuna because he’s certainly looking like it at this point. I wonder if something like 13–2 13–2 junyūshō as ōzeki would be enough or they’d want another yūshō or dōtei?

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16 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

;-) Yeeah, but it's like everyone in the crowd is willing him to 'come on do the lift, do the lift, go on do it do it, yay he did the lift, omg he's so strong, look at the legs flailing, can you believe he did the lift against such a massive guy, come on lift him just a bit further, wow wow, he's like a bear wow, omg I'm speechless that was amazing' every single time.  No doubt The Lift is mercilessly effective once deployed, but thinking in the long term and the scrutiny that will be paid to the quality of his wins going forward, I think he'll need to demonstrate some variety to have any sort of longevity.  That goes as much for his body as the range of skills he should demonstrate as an ozeki to meet the YDC's yard stick if he has any ambitions beyond.  As we all know, the changeable favour of the YDC isn't just a numbers game.  I am but a humble spectator, but I respect range of technique enormously.  Become too reliant on one set-piece and you become rusty on the rest; you only have to look at Hakuhou's non-harite-kachiage tachiai to see that.  Some people here are more results driven in terms of what attracts them to a rikishi and measure success, and that's fine.  I like variety because it protects against vulnerability.  To be clear, I don't intend any of this as criticism of Tochinoshin, rather tough love.

You may be right; I saw at least three other instances of The Lift (or at least attempts at it) in the last couple of days.  For rikishi who make a living on yorikiri and get sick and tired of being spun out just as they get to the straw bales (Kaisei and Kotooshu come to mind), the concept of "taking out the trash" must be exhilarating.  The problem is that you have to be freakishly strong in the upper body, and have the gut size to pivot your opponent off his feet while moving forward.  If it can be done by only one or two men, it might cause "controversy" like the dunk shot in basketball.  The crowd, however, seems to love it.

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9 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Tochinoshin is looking like more of a yokozuna than both current ones today. Kakuryū, shamefuru dispray. Hakuhō grabbed the hair there for a moment, even though it had no effect on the bout I think.

Will root against Kakuryū now. I guess it would be nice if Tochinoshin yūshōs in a ketteisen with Hakuhō, 14–1 for both.

Barring injury Tochinoshin is an ōzeki now, I’m wondering whether he can become yokozuna because he’s certainly looking like it at this point. I wonder if something like 13–2 13–2 junyūshō as ōzeki would be enough or they’d want another yūshō or dōtei?

In that scenario Tochinoshin would have 2 tournaments at Sekiwake and then only 1 at Ozeki, I feel like he would definitely need another Yusho at Ozeki before they would possibly promote him.  I could be wrong and perhaps others know a couple scenarios where it happened

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1 minute ago, Jaynestown said:

In that scenario Tochinoshin would have 2 tournaments at Sekiwake and then only 1 at Ozeki, I feel like he would definitely need another Yusho at Ozeki before they would possibly promote him.  I could be wrong and perhaps others know a couple scenarios where it happened

And now I see you wrote 2 more as Ozeki but I can't go back and edit my post (misunderstood at first).  In that scenario i think he definitely could be promoted

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20 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Barring injury Tochinoshin is an ōzeki now, I’m wondering whether he can become yokozuna because he’s certainly looking like it at this point. I wonder if something like 13–2 13–2 junyūshō as ōzeki would be enough or they’d want another yūshō or dōtei?

I think if he wins here as Sekiwake they might promote him to Yokozuna with a playoff loss and a 13 win Jun yusho in 2 basho as Ozeki. But that would be the minimum I think.  I doubt even then though.  I think that would depend on Goeido and Takayasu not losing their status as Ozeki too.

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2 hours ago, Jaynestown said:

In that scenario Tochinoshin would have 2 tournaments at Sekiwake and then only 1 at Ozeki, I feel like he would definitely need another Yusho at Ozeki before they would possibly promote him.  I could be wrong and perhaps others know a couple scenarios where it happened

Sure. Being promoted to yokozuna with one basho at Ozeki, I remember it was Futabayama (edit: this is not correct). For Tochinoshi, even he gets two consecutive 15-0 yushos this basho and the next basho, it will still be difficult to consider promoting him to yokozuna. However, if he had yusho-ed last basho, and then this and the next basho, that is, four consecutive yushoes, he will be promoted to yokozuna.

Edited by Dapeng

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13 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Sure. Being promoted to yokozuna with one basho at Ozeki, I remember it was Futabayama.

Are we thinking of different people? It was 2 (and so long ago that it wouldn’t matter for today anyway): http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?shikona=futabayama&heya=-1&shusshin=-1&b=-1&high=-1&hd=-1&entry=-1&intai=-1&sort=1

Edited by ALAKTORN

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Geeku had bad luck these two days. His style is susceptible to henka and that's why henka will never be forbidden. You simply can't just keep low and dash forward blindly. Just imagining if henka is outlawed. That's bull fighting bull. Not sumo.

The day before his bout with Hakuho the referee should call matta. Apparently Hakuho has become clever and did not call matta himself, although he might know it's a matta. 

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2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

To be fair, Kotoshogiku's mindless tachiai simply begged for a sidestep. He even left his arms behind when charging blindly. (Check the slomo replay.)

Nothing "fair" about the situation.  Koto's then tachiai does not make it OK for someone like Kak to do what he did.   The fans' reaction pretty much said the whole thing about how "fair" it was.  

Hmmm, I think Hokutofuji should go fusen for a few days at least.  Concussion can linger.

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2 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

I think he'll need to demonstrate some variety to have any sort of longevity.

The former ozeki Chiyotaikai begs to differ. ;-)

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43 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Nothing "fair" about the situation.  Koto's then tachiai does not make it OK for someone like Kak to do what he did.   The fans' reaction pretty much said the whole thing about how "fair" it was.  

Because henka is a legal move, any rikishi should not expect his opponent (even though his opponent is a yokozuna or ozeki) will not henka him. A rikishi should always be prepared to be henka-ed at tachiai

Similarly, although the YDC had strongly advised Hakuho to refrain from using harizashi and kachiage at the tachiai,  Hakuho's opponents should always be prepared that he may use them anyway, simply because both harizashi and kachiage are legal moves.

By the way, Hakuho used a lot of face-slapping (harite) against Endo yesterday (I was wrong when several months ago I said he seldom used face-slapping during a bout ).

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4 hours ago, Philioyamfugi said:

Defiantly a mood since Hokutofuji got blasted, not pretty at all.Tochinoshin even looked pedestrian in victory. Mitakiumi maybe the exception. At least geek didn't get hurt. Endo put up a good fight against the Hak. 

I had to go back and watch it again, it was so quick I didn't really get what what going on. I was sort of doing something else because the matta reset everything and I was just busy while I waited for them to get back into position. We see people limp away a lot but I can't remember the last time someone was wonky from a concussion. 

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1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

Hmmm, I think Hokutofuji should go fusen for a few days at least.  Concussion can linger.

Three months no contact, must be cleared by a Doctor before coming back would be the standard time out in MMA for a concussion. More if the damage is greater than minor.

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Well, yes, but it's a little known fact that sumo wrestlers heal faster than normal people, plus the little acorn bob haircut protects them from all manner of concussions, so the doctor's certificate will say two days and an aspirin. 

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10 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"Why did I do that?? I'm totally unhappy. It would have been better if I lost. I wasn't planning this," said Kakuryuu of his henka. 

Henkas don't just "happen". Despite his denial, Kakuryu obvioulsy planned it. What he did not plan for was the total derision it evoked. If he did it against a rikishi who could have provided strong competition, that could somehow be taken into account. But he did against an M5 rikishi who seemed to be no threat. He wanted a win and he got it in the easiest way possible. And despite his "totally unhappy" comments, I'm sure he didn't feel nearly as bad as he seemed to. A win, no matter how cheap it may be, is a lot better than a loss.

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