Yubinhaad

Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

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3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"It was pointed out to us by organizers and others that girls have a tendency to get injured more than boys and we were asked us to deal with this. We are doing this out of regard for their safety," said someone from the PR department.

Aside from the fact that this is incredibly hamfisted given the current debate, I simply don't believe there's any real evidence of this. To my knowledge, no child has ever been seriously injured (beyond a simple scrape from falling off the dohyo or whatnot) during these events. In part because wrestlers who go up against children do their best to be careful with them, and any injury they cause would be a grave problem. If something goes wrong, it's on the news—and incidental. If I'm wrong and there is some credibility to this claim, please let me know because I couldn't find anything.

I think these people are incredibly careless and basically make these decisions arbitrarily and then use their PR department to relay supposition as fact. Maybe they can get away with this any other time, but doing it in the middle of a controversy is just 火に油を注ぐ

Edited by dada78641

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3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"It was pointed out to us by organizers and others that girls have a tendency to get injured more than boys and we were asked us to deal with this. We are doing this out of regard for their safety," said someone from the PR department.

Well, there are many girls who practice sumo in clubs / dojos across Japan, and they actively participate in all sorts of tournaments (like the girl in the Japan Times photo), some of them are actually really good. Surely doing keiko with the pros is far safer compared to the bouts they have during practice and in competitions?

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NSK needs to get some professional media and PR (and other) people in there to help reduce the public clueness. So they (supposedly) changed the rules in March? Then why didn't they tell anyone back then, especially the local jungyo planners?  Restrict the ex-rikishi to things having to do with the tournament, let professionals in other fields handle the rest. Of course that would require a change from what they've always done, and the NSK won't even consider modernization. They'd rather continue blundering around.

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Goody Goodday today hinted that (ex-PR top) Kasugano is the one to blame for this new PR disaster - top subject again and close to an hour. Taka apparently hadn't cared that much also for this "rule" - that girls shouldn't be on the dohyo. Actually there is no such written rule in the NSK statutes, it is just a tradition. At the start of the Meiji era that tradition was connected to Shinto tradition and received a religious backing (politician Yasuo Tanaka claims that to be a part of State Shinto, which was created then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf2MGQvt_04 ), while women's professional sumo was basically eradicated from the kokugi bit, that ozumo since then claims to be (it was more of an entertainment like kabuki in the Edo period).

The other day Goody had mentioned a senshuraku party in a heya - the ban is the same on the dohyo there - with a blue plastic sheet covering the doyho and women taking part at the party - on the covered doyho. The gyoji of the heya deemed that enough: the gods which might be offended are only present for the 15 days of a hon-basho, after they have been called there with the dohyo matsuri - and they are sent back at the end of the basho with the kami-okuri ceremony - but AFTER the yusho ceremonies.

The call by Araiso-oyakata demanding to have no girls at keiko with kids was late on the 4th - so after the gyoji announcement that started the scandal: that was at around 14h that day. The wide show also speculated that the NSK's new policy decided in March of a stricter ban may be a reason why the gyoji made that call.

As I said before, Kasugano may be the one to lose his position as jungyo chief for all of this - especially for faking the toilet visit - the media keep pointing at that lie.

 

18 hours ago, Flyric said:

What about the picture of the girl sitting next to the dohyo at the top of his article

she was either waiting for her turn to fight on the dohyo or had lost already

Quote

A girl sits beside the ring at the women's national sumo championships in Sakai, Osaka Prefecture, in October 2016.

Edited by Akinomaki

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19 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Goody Goodday today hinted that (ex-PR top) Kasugano is the one to blame for this new PR disaster

Shibatayama Oyakata is taking credit for this decision. He was deputy head of jungyo in September-October of last year and says he decided this back then. "We can't allow any girl to be injured and live with that all her life. We don't have to wait till something like that actually happens since it would be too late then.." he explained. No document was sent to the various promoters regarding this, just an oral guideline.The sekitori still can hold female babies during the dohyo-iri, though. It was customary to allow girls on the dohyo during the children's sumo, but this was last seen at the December winter jungyo.

Edited by Kintamayama
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The NSK had already in December asked for the 2 Nagano locations to refrain from applications of girls. http://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXMZO29332430S8A410C1CC1000/

Similar in Takarazuka on the 6th, the city had planned for girls like at jungyo before, but after the NSK's request only applications for boys were made http://www.sankei.com/west/news/180412/wst1804120090-n1.html

Apparently only in Shizuoka the city had still made applications for girls - knowing the NSK didn't want that.

Edited by Akinomaki
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i think it is time to bring this tradition to an end, or at a minimum modify it.  not allowing women on the dohyo is not inclusive of 21st-century society.  it is yet another situation bringing bad attention to an important sport.  either drop the tradition or find a way to redo the blessing whenever required.  open up the center, replace all the holy items/symbols, and bless it again. 

by the way, are the gyoji Shinto priest in any compacity?  if not, where is their spiritual power to bless the dohyo, to begin with?

and don't forget, there is female Shinto priest, though, on the other hand, i think there are special places in a Shinto shrine they are not allowed enter?

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I am a woman and I've had to deal with the plumbing issue all my life. As a child, banned from woodworking and and tinkering with switchboards, sent to needlework and knitting instead. Being fit into dresses and being supposed to care for frilly things. Being told that something isn't proper for a girl to do. Even my enlightened parents were worried that I wouldn't marry well, or assiciate with the wrong kind of men, totally negating my own say in the matter.

17 hours ago, Marcus33 said:

I will be the happiest person in the world if I would regularly see women in car shops fixing stuff which are beyond that one man can fix on his (and his wife's) car alone. And I would be even happier to see the women herself socially benefiting by going under the car in the property parking dealing with machine oil and grease, changing, or even checking if the tire is inflated enough. Why I don't see that? Is there any discrimination for a woman to apply in car shop or fix her own car? 

When I granted an aviation shop a major maintenance order in 1990, there was a problem because I wanted to work on the plane myself. The twelve guys in the shop were shocked, but they could not very well refuse a lucrative order, so it was allowed.  In the first week, I was given all the greasy jobs to do and some physically hard stuff, just to see if it would chase me away. They were also worried that I would inhibit their talk in the coffee room. Within two days, everything got straightened out, we all had an enjoyable time with me just being one of the boys and when we parted we were all good friends. Today, I'm a little stiffer but still lie on my back below the fuselage to break the seal of the fuel sump to change the filter.

In my areas of interest -- sailing, flying, computers, sci-fi etc -- I've had to fight constant battles to be seen as equal to the men. As a woman I am belittled and excluded. Men are hesitant to allow a woman to join them in their manly pursuits as an equal, let alone as their superior. Youthful conditioning to be an alpha male earning female admiration with manly prowess plays an important part in the survival of male chauvinism. To be an equal, you have to be better, work harder, suffer distrust, social isolation and intolerance for mistakes. When you're young and pretty, men will tolerate your presence but scoff at the idea that you could be their captain or their boss. At work, you have to prove your worth with a big handicap because if you make decisions like a man, you are a ball-crunching bitch. And if you don't, you are a softie proving that women are no good as leaders. Been there, done that, but hey, despite all this I'm still here and last time I looked at the plumbing I'm still a woman. It wasn't easy to become happy but I found ways to Do My Own Thing regardless of prejudice, and I wish every woman on earth the same. Break those molds! Do sumo if you want to! I'd really like to have more buddies to play with, I'd like to see more girls and boys rebelling and swimming against the tide. 

Is this tide going to turn? With all the strides that have been made in the past fifty years, change is still standing on a shaky foundation. There are still pregnant women who think a foetus' sex is of paramount importance, who decorate their baby rooms and give out gender role confirming first names, who choose toys and activities that encourage boys to be adventurous and girls to be pretty and sweet. As long as this stays the same, girls and boys that want to do things beyond what is traditionally expected of them will meet with discouragement designed to make them accept the traditional roles, leaving only the strongest dissidents to lead the fight for change. The recent action by the NSK to ban girls from participating in the Fujisan Shizuoka jungyo is a slap in every woman's face and it's a huge step backwards if such a ban is allowed to stand and -- God forbid -- be allowed to spread to other dohyos in the land.

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4 hours ago, orandashoho said:

I am a woman and I've had to deal with the plumbing issue all my life. As a child, banned from woodworking and and tinkering with switchboards, sent to needlework and knitting instead. Being fit into dresses and being supposed to care for frilly things. Being told that something isn't proper for a girl to do. Even my enlightened parents were worried that I wouldn't marry well, or assiciate with the wrong kind of men, totally negating my own say in the matter.

When I granted an aviation shop a major maintenance order in 1990, there was a problem because I wanted to work on the plane myself. The twelve guys in the shop were shocked, but they could not very well refuse a lucrative order, so it was allowed.  In the first week, I was given all the greasy jobs to do and some physically hard stuff, just to see if it would chase me away. They were also worried that I would inhibit their talk in the coffee room. Within two days, everything got straightened out, we all had an enjoyable time with me just being one of the boys and when we parted we were all good friends. Today, I'm a little stiffer but still lie on my back below the fuselage to break the seal of the fuel sump to change the filter.

In my areas of interest -- sailing, flying, computers, sci-fi etc -- I've had to fight constant battles to be seen as equal to the men. As a woman I am belittled and excluded. Men are hesitant to allow a woman to join them in their manly pursuits as an equal, let alone as their superior. Youthful conditioning to be an alpha male earning female admiration with manly prowess plays an important part in the survival of male chauvinism. To be an equal, you have to be better, work harder, suffer distrust, social isolation and intolerance for mistakes. When you're young and pretty, men will tolerate your presence but scoff at the idea that you could be their captain or their boss. At work, you have to prove your worth with a big handicap because if you make decisions like a man, you are a ball-crunching bitch. And if you don't, you are a softie proving that women are no good as leaders. Been there, done that, but hey, despite all this I'm still here and last time I looked at the plumbing I'm still a woman. It wasn't easy to become happy but I found ways to Do My Own Thing regardless of prejudice, and I wish every woman on earth the same. Break those molds! Do sumo if you want to! I'd really like to have more buddies to play with, I'd like to see more girls and boys rebelling and swimming against the tide. 

Is this tide going to turn? With all the strides that have been made in the past fifty years, change is still standing on a shaky foundation. There are still pregnant women who think a foetus' sex is of paramount importance, who decorate their baby rooms and give out gender role confirming first names, who choose toys and activities that encourage boys to be adventurous and girls to be pretty and sweet. As long as this stays the same, girls and boys that want to do things beyond what is traditionally expected of them will meet with discouragement designed to make them accept the traditional roles, leaving only the strongest dissidents to lead the fight for change. The recent action by the NSK to ban girls from participating in the Fujisan Shizuoka jungyo is a slap in every woman's face and it's a huge step backwards if such a ban is allowed to stand and -- God forbid -- be allowed to spread to other dohyos in the land.

This quote is from Chankomafuji. Here in the US, being a woman is not a disadvantage in sailing, flying, computers, only in areas where physical size and strength is an advantage. Well maybe not in sailing, being a good trimmer requires a lot of upper body endurance. In sumo, of course, women should compete against other women.

I understand that "no women on the dohyo" is a tradition, but traditions do change, they are not forever.

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Ms. Ikenobou, head of the Hyogiin-kai, has this to say regarding the women on the dohyo situation:

"When the children fall on the dohyo, it's a hard dohyo and they can graze their faces. It's dangerous. People were voicing their concerns over their safety.  Fourth and fifth graders already have sturdy bodies, including the girls.  The rikishi who face these kids have to use some force. This is a very delicate problem. Sumo is a marvelous traditional culture. I wish for a female Prime Minister, but I do not think women should be allowed on the dohyo. I remember when ex- Chiyotaikai's mother took part in his danpatsushiki and they had to make a special stage for her dohyo-side. I'm sure she wanted to be on the dohyo, as did Chiyotaikai. Notwithstanding, if you start making exceptions for parents or for special events, in the end, you will gradually chip away at the tradition. Tradition is something you choose to uphold and that's what keeps it going. It's OK to discuss it's relevance for its time. Things that need change should be changed. It's also OK to keep things that should absolutely not be changed as they are. We should listen to voices outside of sumo while it is also important to listen to the rikishi who are staking their lives out there on the dohyo every day of their lives. At present, everyone seems to be caught up in the moment and saying women should be allowed on the dohyo, but we should keep a level head and discuss this carefully," she said.

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7 hours ago, Marcus33 said:

Well maybe not in sailing, being a good trimmer requires a lot of upper body endurance

I've been a trimmer. More often than brute strength you need concentration, speed and that hard to describe "feel". If you have none of that, brute strength will only get you into trouble. And women can endure, proving time and agin that they have more endurance than men who rely on the strength of their bodies. I have seen such men fold suddenly, become useless. We are not often put in positions where we can prove it, but you only have to look at the way Dee Caffari has captained her team through a most gruelling Southern Ocean passage to be glad that women today have more opportunities than in the time when I wanted to compete.

10 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Ms. Ikenobou, head of the Hyogiin-kai, has this to say regarding the women on the dohyo situation:

"When the children fall on the dohyo, it's a hard dohyo and they can graze their faces. It's dangerous. People were voicing their concerns over their safety.  Fourth and fifth graders already have sturdy bodies, including the girls.  The rikishi who face these kids have to use some force. This is a very delicate problem. Sumo is a marvelous traditional culture. I wish for a female Prime Minister, but I do not think women should be allowed on the dohyo. I remember when ex- Chiyotaikai's mother took part in his danpatsushiki and they had to make a special stage for her dohyo-side. I'm sure she wanted to be on the dohyo, as did Chiyotaikai. Notwithstanding, if you start making exceptions for parents or for special events, in the end, you will gradually chip away at the tradition. Tradition is something you choose to uphold and that's what keeps it going. It's OK to discuss it's relevance for its time. Things that need change should be changed. It's also OK to keep things that should absolutely not be changed as they are. We should listen to voices outside of sumo while it is also important to listen to the rikishi who are staking their lives out there on the dohyo every day of their lives. At present, everyone seems to be caught up in the moment and saying women should be allowed on the dohyo, but we should keep a level head and discuss this carefully," she said.

Is the difference between small girls and small boys so great that the dangers warrant a ban of only the girls? Those same dangers exist for boys as well. Perhaps the greater danger lies in the way girls are taught, out of the mistaken belief that they can't take a fall.
At any age, the differences between members of the same sex are greater than those between men and women. There are strong girls and weakling boys. Live with it.

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Ms. Ikenobo seems to appeal to tradition in this statement, saying that it’s ok to uphold tradition merely for the sake of upholding tradition. Then she goes on to say she wants a female prime minister and that it’s fine to discuss the relevance of traditions over time. Does that mean reevaluate and change them, or just discuss but not potentially change? She clearly states that young girls are as sturdy as boys. If injuries are the concern, is she saying no more children should be allowed to participate at all? She also mentions needing to listen to the rikishi. Were they the ones suggesting that girls needed to be excluded from the children’s event? Are they the ones who want to keep women out of the dohyo? Perhaps they’ve been vocal about the issue and I’ve simply missed it, but I somehow doubt that’s the case. 

I’m agnostic as to whether the tradition should be changed, but I am not agnostic about the need for proper argumentation from the traditionalist camp. Defending tradition requires an actual defense, particularly from prominent adherents! There are lots of places where religious traditions remain despite the lack of “relevance” of such traditions. In that context, the Shinto origins of excluding women from the dohyo are at least as defensible as Catholics refusing to ordain women priests of Jews and Muslims enforcing gender separation in various contexts. The reasons aren’t relevant in modern society given the rise of gender equality and a modern understanding of biology, but they exist and can be elaborated upon. By contrast, donkey braying in the manner of “tradition is tradition is tradition hee-yaw hee-yaw” is ineffective argumentation. I hope that something is lost in translation with this quote. Otherwise, it’s just incoherent.

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2 hours ago, Michishige said:

 I hope that something is lost in translation with this quote. Otherwise, it’s just incoherent.

Nothing is lost in the translation, but everything is lost in tradition and in how different people relate to it.

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Nothing was lost, but this was added

4 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I do not think women should be allowed on the dohyo.

Like any other politician, she didn't tell her own opinion straight like this. The interview was on the tokudane wide show this time.

 

Edited by Akinomaki

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4 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Nothing was lost, but this was added

 

Added?: By me? Really?  女性が土俵に上がるようにしようというのは私は違っていて 

"Let's let women on the dohyo is something I have a different opinion of."  Better now? She is saying exactly what I translated, but in a diplomatic and roundabout way, but still, there is no grey area here. The opinion is straight. She does not want women on the dohyo. Unless the article itself misquoted her, which I have no control over.

Edited by Kintamayama

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She said "I want a woman to become prime minister, but if there is one, that doesn't mean that she also has to be allowed on the doyho."

I don't know which article you read, I took it from the interview on tokudane itself. The part you cited is ripped out of a full sentence, without the whole thing it can't be fully understood.

She said nothing about what she believes should be, only what is, and leaves everything to further discussion.

Edited by Akinomaki

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5 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

She said "I want a woman to become prime minister, but if there is one, that doesn't mean that she also has to be allowed on the doyho."

I don't know which article you read, I took it from the interview on tokudane itself. The part you cited is ripped out of a full sentence, without the whole thing it can't be fully understood.

She said nothing about what she believes should be, only what is, and leaves everything to further discussion.

相撲は素晴らしい伝統文化。女性の総理大臣が出てきてほしいが、女性が土俵に上がるようにしようというのはっていて

It's pretty clear-cut, sir. She is saying what I said she is saying, if we go according to the article. The word "I" is there, which means she is saying EXACTLY what she believes should be, even using the word "different". Or was this "ripped out" as well?

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Japan is a country of extremes. On the surface, harmony is perfect and traditions are timeless. Under the surface, tensions are brewing that need an outlet -- opportunities for extreme silliness as well as physical activity channeling violence, safely separate from daily life where it could disturb the collective illusion of perfect harmony.
In such an enviroment, change is hard to come by. There is much value in upholding traditions, they offer stability and security and various ways to safely express feelings that can't be spoken.
Sumo is unique in that it both rigorously upholds antiquated traditions AND provides a safe outlet for repressed energy. For that reason alone, sumo along with other traditional martial arts should be available to everyone who can use it to balance the frustrations of normal modern life -- man or woman, girl or boy.
We all live in a world full of shared illusions and fantasies of peace and lawfulness. Some of these are very hard to change indeed, but I think that just as the appearance of women in leading roles and in male-dominated fields is not shattering world order as we know it, sumo tradition can survive the appearance of girls and women on the dohyo. As a whole, it is too glorious an expression to abolish, but I dare say it has room for a new tradition or two.

Edited by orandashoho

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Trans

4 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

相撲は素晴らしい伝統文化。女性の総理大臣が出てきてほしいが、女性が土俵に上がるようにしようというのはっていて

It's pretty clear-cut, sir. She is saying what I said she is saying, if we go according to the article. The word "I" is there, which means she is saying EXACTLY what she believes should be, even using the word "different". Or was this "ripped out" as well?

It would be nice it you would start citing your sources. In the tokudane interview she said nothing like this

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The latest talk about not allowing elementary school girls n the dohyo has led some media people to say that this would not have happened if Takanohana was still head of the jungyo. but female sumo journalist Reiko Ono begs to differ. "Takanohana Oyakata is an oyakata who respects tradition,  so he said he wants this to stop and he was the one who said so," she said, saying it was Takanohana's idea. "It was formally decided during the last October jungyo", she added. 

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It was:

女性の総理大臣が出てきてほしいが

but then instead of 、女性が it was "sori-daijin ga dete kuru kara, " and it goes on like you wrote

dohyo ni agereru you ni shiyou ... 土俵に上がるようにしよう

というのはっていて

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Just now, Akinomaki said:

It would be nice it you would start citing your sources. In the tokudane interview she said nothing like this

So, what are you now saying? You do agree that my translation was correct then? What bothers you is that I never cite my sources? That I'm inventing this? I don't cite my sources for a reason.  What bothers me are your insinuations that I'm making things up. weren't you the one who made up a translation and later said it was your opinion just so it would fit your agenda? I seem to recall something like that recently..

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Just now, Akinomaki said:

It was:

女性の総理大臣が出てきてほしいが

but then instead of 、女性が it was "sori-daijin ga dete kuru kara, " and it goes on like you wrote

dohyo ni agereru you ni shiyou ... 土俵に上がるようにしよう

というのはっていて

But, she still says she is against it. Right?

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