Yubinhaad

Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

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7 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

In Japan there is no such thing as football. There is amefuto - American football - and soccer. The Japan soccer association only international is the Japan Football Association JFA, the public knows the sport as soccer.

That is correct, thank you for clarifying. Indeed I did go by what is internationally known. 

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39 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

"Some, like human sacrifice, ..." if death is the fate of one being sacrificed, how many people died in the history of sumo because women did not step on the dohyo?  Is this really a valid example? Exaggerating is the least I can call this.

"
“Women should not enter the ring.” Replace the subject in that sentence with pretty much any other group of historically persecuted people (blacks / Jews / people with Down syndrome etc.) and see how easily it sits with you."  PERSECUTION??? Implying that women not stepping on the dohyo  can be compared with PERSECUTION, forgive me, is absolutely laughable.  
 

I'm not even going to touch on most of your response. I don't want to have this site have to do a Tachiai.

Can I just say what's it's like being a woman, in my experience? I have people throw insults at me as a walk down the street just because I'm a woman. By men, obviously. It would be nice to live in a place where that doesn't happen, but it's a fact of life for me.

We are discriminated against. For years in many places we didn't have a right to vote. That was a tradition, put about by men. In many industries woman are still pay less than men despite having the same qualifications and experiences.

@John Gunning is not suggesting that we're being killed because of stepping on the dohyo. He's merely highlighting that if you were to replace with women with e.g. black in that sentence then there would be more obvious outcry. Why? Not because discriminating against women is ok, but because often it's a lot more hidden and harder to see.

A lot of tradition against women (particularly in religion) stems from women being considered impure or not as good as men. Once upon a time, women were banished to tents during their menstruation. There is nothing unnatural about menstruation, but the legacy of that and similar pronouncements against women continues today. 

By considering women to be impure (no basis in science for that), or somehow lesser than men we perpetuate discrimination against women in a number of ways. The male privilege is to benefit from this just by being male. One of the ways males can benefit from this is by pretending it doesn't exist (since the discrimination doesn't affect them), or dismissing it or saying it's a tradition.

Women on the other hand have to fight for equality and recognition, and sometimes they are afraid to do so because of retaliation by males. That would answer the question as to why some politicians didn't speak about it last year. I suspect that those politicians finally felt like they had a voice on this subject.

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@Sakura, while Mr. Gunning's article still had sumo in it, your post assembles pure political, feminist statement.  

Is it that much of a problem for you as a woman that women can not step on the dohyo where essentially men are competing? Does it hurt your woman pride? In my previous post, I gave another example where women are forbidden to enter, does that fact there disturb you too? Does it bother billions of Christians that a woman is forbidden to serve as a deacon? Now I certainly want to mention that I agree for a different and clear interpretation (certainly not removal) of this rule where like in this case women can do good in emergencies. Even the welcoming speeches or giving a reward by an official (!), fine. I do understand that the part of woman impurity in sumo (no matter how trivial it is, as the rikishi too have wifes and women they love and live with). Would it satisfy you if the Sumo Association make a statement that it it not "woman impurity" the reason of women not being allowed to step on the dohyo? Or as the feminist organizations, every struggle has to lead to total surrender to every demand? 

If a woman says in public that size matters it is all laugh, no problem. If a man says in public that (breast) size matters, it is discrimination, a strike against human rights.

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10 hours ago, John Gunning said:

Thank you for such a great and thorough article. Agree with you from start to finish. This recent scandal was painful to watch, but hopefully it can serve as a catalyst for some change. I also appreciate your paragraphs about how meaningless the distinction really is, and how this leaves out transgender people. I've been following that aspect of the discussion since reading about transgender wrestler Mack Beggs.

Your article was not shy to put it all out there and take a bold stance. Thank you!

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1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

@Sakura, while Mr. Gunning's article still had sumo in it, your post assembles pure political, feminist statement.  
 

I've never considered myself a feminist, and I think you're reading too much into my post. I'm simply stating that gender discrimination is a thing, which you didn't seem to want to acknowledge.

1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

Is it that much of a problem for you as a woman that women can not step on the dohyo where essentially men are competing? Does it hurt your woman pride? 

No, and no. Though I am curious to know why you chose to use the words `woman pride'. Personally, I think too much pride is a bad thing, but I am pleased with some of my achievements. But those have nothing to do with the fact that I'm a woman. Do you have pride based on your gender?

 

1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

In my previous post, I gave another example where women are forbidden to enter, does that fact there disturb you too? Does it bother billions of Christians that a woman is forbidden to serve as a deacon? 

I would like to go further into the religion thing, but forum rules prohibit me. As far as Sumo goes, I see the image of the woman allowed on the dohyo half a century ago, and I notice that there are Shinto priestesses and conclude that there is no basis for the rule aside from discrimination.

 

1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

Would it satisfy you if the Sumo Association make a statement that it it not "woman impurity" the reason of women not being allowed to step on the dohyo? Or as the feminist organizations, every struggle has to lead to total surrender to every demand? 

That would help. But what would they say? `We don't allow women because we just don't want them up here.' That would just make the discrimination more obvious. Where discrimination occurs, I do believe every struggle should lead to the end of discrimination. If the demand is just that, then yes. 

 

1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

If a woman says in public that size matters it is all laugh, no problem. If a man says in public that (breast) size matters, it is discrimination, a strike against human rights.

Personally, I don't feel like members of one group should give names to, or be derogatory about another group of which they are not a part. As a white person, I should not say the N-word. I wouldn't want to anyway. But if members of the black community use that word about themselves, then they have that right.

With regard to your particular point, I'm putting it in a spoiler quote in case it breaks some sort of forum rule I'm not aware of.

Spoiler

Likewise, if men want to talk about their genitalia they can do that, but I don't think women have the right to talk about it in any demeaning way (including talking about the size). The same thing applies to breasts. If women want to make comments about breast size they can (I don't, personally) but I don't think men should.

 

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1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

@Sakura, while Mr. Gunning's article still had sumo in it, your post assembles pure political, feminist statement.

What about the picture of the girl sitting next to the dohyo at the top of his article --- do you consider that fact that she can't wrestle on the dohyo to not be discriminatory? I imagine wrestling on an actual dohyo would be a special treat for anyone who made the national tournament.

sp-sumo-b-20180412-870x473.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Flyric said:

What about the picture of the girl sitting next to the dohyo at the top of his article --- do you consider that fact that she can't wrestle on the dohyo to not be discriminatory? I imagine wrestling on an actual dohyo would be a special treat for anyone who made the national tournament.

 

Actually, she could be sitting next to a baseball/football etc. field. Same thing. Same discrimination, if that's what you call it. Any male sport actually. I don't think anybody is talking about women actually wrestling. More about being allowed in any capacity on the dohyo, for starters.

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3 hours ago, RaeucherLax said:

That's probably thanks to the US influence... as they are the only ones I was aware of using the term soccer :-S for football! 

And thanks to @John Gunning for the article! 

In Ireland when I was going up we used soccer as football meant Gaelic Football. 

 U_l7e+

 

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14 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

In Ireland when I was going up we used soccer as football meant Gaelic Football. 

 U_l7e+

 

I forgot about Australia! Of course "football" there = Australian Rules Football, which always reminded me more of rugby than American football.  (back when they were first starting up, ESPN showed a *lot* of footy)

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23 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Actually, she could be sitting next to a baseball/football etc. field. Same thing. Same discrimination, if that's what you call it. Any male sport actually. I don't think anybody is talking about women actually wrestling. More about being allowed in any capacity on the dohyo, for starters.

I was just trying to give an example to @chankomafuji where in sumo, someone was denied something her peers could do due to her gender.

On the sports discrimination, I think [all?] male sports don't have an issue with women playing the same game on the same field. I feel sumo is unique in this regard since it toes the line between sport and religion.

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Hey @Chankomafuji instead why don't you inform us all of the religious, social and economic benefits of keeping women away from the dohyo? 

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20 minutes ago, Flyric said:

I was just trying to give an example to @chankomafuji where in sumo, someone was denied something her peers could do due to her gender.

On the sports discrimination, I think [all?] male sports don't have an issue with women playing the same game on the same field. I feel sumo is unique in this regard since it toes the line between sport and religion.

This too is another very bad example, as you (or I might be "wrong" here too?) can certainly not know why the girl on the picture is standing there at the first place and secondly, I doubt you have the powers to know what exactly crosses the girl's mind when watching the action (which we can not even see).

 

4 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Hey @Chankomafuji instead why don't you inform us all of the religious, social and economic benefits of keeping women away from the dohyo? 

What exactly made you assume that in my beliefs, women should be kept away from the dohyo because of religious, social and economic benefits? Where did I say anything like this? Precisely in my last spot I do support women going on the dohyo in emergencies or official speeches, so your question only shows that you have not read (or more likely I believe, understand) my posts.

I will be the happiest person in the world if I would regularly see women in car shops fixing stuff which are beyond that one man can fix on his (and his wife's) car alone. And I would be even happier to see the women herself socially benefiting by going under the car in the property parking dealing with machine oil and grease, changing, or even checking if the tire is inflated enough. Why I don't see that? Is there any discrimination for a woman to apply in car shop or fix her own car? 
Look, I believe I am talking to intelligent people here. I do not want to fill yet another post in useless examples thinking that this is the only way for me to be understood. There are still places in the (modern!) world where older people need someone to chop their logs so they can heat and feed themselves in the winter. And I myself in my old child days grew up in a place like this. Where every house had to have stored logs every single year. Do you know how many times I have seen women chopping logs? Zero. How about you? Have you ever even seen a woman holding an axe? Is there any discrimination here? @Sakura ? Who will forbid a woman to chop her own logs?
Enough with the examples.
There is no such thing as "equal". Want it or not, believe it or not. There are things men do better and things that women do better. And not simply "do". Would you disagree or find it discriminatory if I say that chopping logs is a man business? The professional sumo is a men sport. Women are blessed  to be able to say to their children "I carried you and I gave you birth.", men can not do that. Whoever believes in equality or feminism is bound, I repeat, bound not to be satisfied with how life goes on in our lifetime. Because the way feminism works is, lets take sumo for example, tomorrow sumo allows women to step on the dohyo, and in another year or two they will demand women in makunouchi. And because there are not enough women who are willing to do sumo professionally, sumo will die out in the matter of couple bashos. But let's get back to reality.
Ultimately, everyone has a head on his/her shoulders. 
 

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20 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:


I will be the happiest person in the world if I would regularly see women in car shops fixing stuff which are beyond that one man can fix on his (and his wife's) car alone. And I would be even happier to see the women herself socially benefiting by going under the car in the property parking dealing with machine oil and grease, changing, or even checking if the tire is inflated enough. Why I don't see that? Is there any discrimination for a woman to apply in car shop or fix her own car? 
 

I don't know why you don't see that. I see women fixing cars in mechanic shops. I also see them chopping wood.

 

25 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:


 Would you disagree or find it discriminatory if I say that chopping logs is a man business? 

Yes. Because that's absurd. Women can chop wood, work as mechanics or builders. In my daughter's primary school, only two of the ~35 teachers are men. I wish there were more men at the school, but it's not traditional for men to go into teaching of young children. But that's also absurd, and there is no good reason for it.

 

32 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

Because the way feminism works is, lets take sumo for example, tomorrow sumo allows women to step on the dohyo, and in another year or two they will demand women in makunouchi. 

I don't think anyone will be demanding that.

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2 hours ago, Fukurou said:

I forgot about Australia! Of course "football" there = Australian Rules Football, which always reminded me more of rugby than American football.  (back when they were first starting up, ESPN showed a *lot* of footy)

My interest in Australian Rules Football ("footy")  began similarly to the way I became interested in sumo. I briefly saw it on TV and thought it was fascinating. It's played on an oval field that can be twice as long as an American football field and up to three times as wide. It can become quite violent, yet the players wear little or no protective gear. The ball, unlike an American football, is also oval in shape. That's because passing is not allowed. it can only be advanced by being kicked, punched with the fist, or to a limited degree, running. 

If you live in the USA and care to watch it, matches are shown on Fox Sports Channels. 

When people ask me about my favorite sports, I always include sumo and Aussie Rules Football. When I mention sumo, they think I'm kind of crazy. When I add Aussie football, they know I've gone completely mad. :-)

 

 

Edited by sekitori
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1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

This too is another very bad example, as you (or I might be "wrong" here too?) can certainly not know why the girl on the picture is standing there at the first place and secondly, I doubt you have the powers to know what exactly crosses the girl's mind when watching the action (which we can not even see).

 

What exactly made you assume that in my beliefs, women should be kept away from the dohyo because of religious, social and economic benefits? Where did I say anything like this? Precisely in my last spot I do support women going on the dohyo in emergencies or official speeches, so your question only shows that you have not read (or more likely I believe, understand) my posts.

I will be the happiest person in the world if I would regularly see women in car shops fixing stuff which are beyond that one man can fix on his (and his wife's) car alone. And I would be even happier to see the women herself socially benefiting by going under the car in the property parking dealing with machine oil and grease, changing, or even checking if the tire is inflated enough. Why I don't see that? Is there any discrimination for a woman to apply in car shop or fix her own car? 
Look, I believe I am talking to intelligent people here. I do not want to fill yet another post in useless examples thinking that this is the only way for me to be understood. There are still places in the (modern!) world where older people need someone to chop their logs so they can heat and feed themselves in the winter. And I myself in my old child days grew up in a place like this. Where every house had to have stored logs every single year. Do you know how many times I have seen women chopping logs? Zero. How about you? Have you ever even seen a woman holding an axe? Is there any discrimination here? @Sakura ? Who will forbid a woman to chop her own logs?
Enough with the examples.
There is no such thing as "equal". Want it or not, believe it or not. There are things men do better and things that women do better. And not simply "do". Would you disagree or find it discriminatory if I say that chopping logs is a man business? The professional sumo is a men sport. Women are blessed  to be able to say to their children "I carried you and I gave you birth.", men can not do that. Whoever believes in equality or feminism is bound, I repeat, bound not to be satisfied with how life goes on in our lifetime. Because the way feminism works is, lets take sumo for example, tomorrow sumo allows women to step on the dohyo, and in another year or two they will demand women in makunouchi. And because there are not enough women who are willing to do sumo professionally, sumo will die out in the matter of couple bashos. But let's get back to reality.
Ultimately, everyone has a head on his/her shoulders. 
 

Well, you certainly don't live in the US , where there is no shortage of women mechanics or women chopping wood. Perhaps you live in a country where discrimination against women is rampant?

Yes, women are smaller and weaker, and will never compete against men in Sumo, but the whole idea that they will befoul the dohyo merely by stepping on it seems a bit silly.

Looking at your post again, I see that you agree that women shouldn't be kept off the dohyo, so I guess I'm not disagreeing with you, except for "how feminism works". As far as I know we don't have any feminists here, at least I haven't seen any.

Edited by Marcus33
clarification

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Ok, received some reports on Chankomafuji's post. Some members seem to feel that he is calling transgender people gross. My understanding of what he wrote is that he is of the opinion that using that example in the article was inexcusably bad. As in a criticism of the article itself, not a commentary on transgender people.

As such, I don't see the need to censure Chankomafuji. This is a discussion about a subject that is not without controversy. It is worth having, however. Please continue discussing, keeping in mind that while we can differ in opinion, we should be open to other opinions as well. Free and open exchange is encouraged, as long as we can be respectful of one another.

Thank you all for your understanding.

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2 hours ago, Fukurou said:

I forgot about Australia! Of course "football" there = Australian Rules Football, which always reminded me more of rugby than American football.  (back when they were first starting up, ESPN showed a *lot* of footy)

Australian’s use ‘football’ for a number of codes: rugby league, rugby union, Aussie rules and actually football. It’s quite confusing.

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Because I am shocked that the reason for being reported by some members is merely mentioning twice the word "transgender" in my early post, I have the very strong need to deeply say "I am so sorry" to this members. As the respected Mod said, I criticized the article itself, not the transgender people. How can I call them "gross", this is outrageous! They are among the most lovely people in the world, beautiful, smart, strong. With their high moral character, they are role models for the young people. Even the rikishi can take their amazing examples of physical and psychological endurance as lessons. And as Sakura said in the famous deleted conversation in Tachiai, they are not mentally nor psychologically ill. They are completely normal. 
Reporting a post is in fact an attempt to silence the opposition, which I appear to be. For this so deep insult that some wrongly believe that I made, to the people who reported me, I am wholeheartedly wishing them a house, full of transgenders. Children, friends, neighbors, I wish you experience the transgender community that you likely dream for. I wish you to witness an amazing, desired by all transgender sumo professional league, or the many transgender rikishi wannabes that we hear all day along about to join the sekitori ranks in the current ozumo. I wish you to hear the moment the announcer says "yokozuna Taransugenderu", from whatever shusshin. 
Now, after I made this clarification from the bottom of my heart, I wonder if the dear members who reported me will now commend and respect my clarification. As there is only love, respect and happiness I am talking about, and that is what you want isn't it? Transgender people are very forgiving and you support and respect them, I expect that you too are as forgiving as they are.

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Talk about shooting oneself in the foot after being given the benefit of the doubt. Chankomafuji would wisely refrain from any more transgender remarks here.

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More fuel on the fire-the Kyokai asked to exclude girls from this year's children sumo in Shizuoka during the Fujisan Shizuoka jungyo that was held on the 8th of April. "We would like you to restrain girls from mounting the dohyo," was what the Kyokai asked the organizers. We are talking about rikishi facing elementary school children, including girls. Apparently head of that jungyo Araiso Oyakata (ex-Tamakasuga) called them on the phone on the 4th to ask them to refrain from allowing girls to take part in this. This Fujisan basho has been held yearly since 2013 and till now girls were welcome. and 5 girls were planning to participate. "This sudden exclusion has left some of the children very sad. I would like them to return to the dohyo next time," said the prefecture sumo league's head Mr. Shitamura. According to the Kyokai PR office, they decided to change how things are done during the jungyo starting this March and this was one of the changes.  "It was pointed out to us by organizers and others that girls have a tendency to get injured more than boys and we were asked to deal with this. We are doing this out of regard for their safety," said someone from the PR department.

Edited by Kintamayama
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33 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

More fuel on the fire-the Kyokai asked to exclude girls from this year's children sumo in Shizuoka during the Fujisan Shizuoka jungyo that was held on the 8th of April.

Presumably, this request was issued before the doctor/nurse on the dohyo fiasco???

Edited by Asojima

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1 hour ago, Asojima said:

Presumably, this request was issued before the doctor/nurse on the dohyo fiasco???

Even if it was it's hard to understand why they suddenly changed this. And from today's pov it certainly doesn't make them look very smart.

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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

More fuel on the fire-the Kyokai asked to exclude girls from this year's children sumo in Shizuoka during the Fujisan Shizuoka jungyo that was held on the 8th of April. "We would like you to restrain girls from mounting the dohyo," was what the Kyokai asked the organizers. We are talking about rikishi facing elementary school children, including girls. Apparently head of that jungyo Araiso Oyakata (ex-Tamakasuga) called them on the phone on the 4th to ask them to refrain from allowing girls to take part in this. This Fujisan basho has been held yearly since 2013 and till now girls were welcome. and 5 girls were planning to participate. "This sudden exclusion has left some of the children very sad. I would like them to return to the dohyo next time," said the prefecture sumo league's head Mr. Shitamura. According to the Kyokai PR office, they decided to change how things are done during the jungyo starting this March and this was one of the changes.  "It was pointed out to us by organizers and others that girls have a tendency to get injured more than boys and we were asked us to deal with this. We are doing this out of regard for their safety," said someone from the PR department.

Oh come on! They’re kids! They’re pretty much equally robust at that age and the rikishi obviously aren’t brutalising them given how often they have kids in the ring with them on jungyo. Safety concerns were really so great that they left it to four days prior to the event to issue the notice, when they’d been so looking forward to it? Poor show. 

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