Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

[sekitori 492]

15 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

No, certainly not. The religious element does not exist in the amateur federations outside Japan. Women competitors train  along with men in a friendly environment. The gyoji is only a referee. A woman gyoji can be seen during a men's bout and a man gyoji can be seen during a women's bout. During a larger amateur tournaments (like a world championship for example) there are attempts by the organizers to make it look more Japanese-like, but nothing in particular. Both men and women do shiko practice for example, but the only reason for it is the physical exercise, nothing to do with banishing demons from the dohyo. 
Literally nothing to do with the professional sumo.

You missed my point. I realize that that amateur sumo in other countries is conducted in a far different manner than is professional sumo in Japan.  My question involved makunouchi rikishis traveling in official tours to other countries--koens, as opposed to regional Japanese jungyos. I repeat it again--are the dohyos in those situations also considered to be sacred the same way they are in Japan?

[Asojima 2,874]

Any chance of getting this split off to its own topic???

[Eikokurai 3,437]

3 hours ago, Zenjimoto said:

Watch a different sport?  I have been, exactly because I grew tired of some of the archaic BS in sumo, and its inability to put forward meaningful reforms to remedy.  There are many awesome quirky traditions I wouldn't wanna miss (like the way the torikumi or banzuke are made), but other nonsense - like discrimination against women, match-fixing, and hazing/heya violence - among others - are unacceptable, and played a large role in turning me off to the "sport".

Why are you here then? Looking at your posting history this thread is the first you’ve commented on in over a year and there was a three-year gap before that. I’m curious why you’ve returned now to rant about religion and misogyny. I think you ought to wait for the Guardian opinion piece and share your thoughts there instead of trying to bait fans of sumo here. Your virtue signaling will find a much wider audience on an international newspaper than this obscure forum for a niche sport frequented by a handful of nerds.

[Flyric 94]

3 hours ago, Kuroyama said:

...
Don't like it? Watch a different sport.

I think the problem is that sumo is considered the national sport of japan, so even the Japanese citizens who don't watch sumo have a vested interest in how it's conducted. It's tied with their nation's identity.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Flyric

[Kuroyama 715]

3 hours ago, Zenjimoto said:

I call BS on any "religion" that discriminates against any part of the population, especially gender.  Plain and simple: gross human rights violations.  Choose another "religion"?  Good luck with that in places where they'll chop your head off for that.  It's not at all that simple.

You are seriously equating human rights such as the right to vote and own property, or the right to dress and live as one pleases in oppressive theocracies, with a ceremonial prohibition against touching a compacted pile of dirt. This is just about the silliest nonsense I've seen around here lately.

[Kuroyama 715]

27 minutes ago, Flyric said:

I think the problem is that sumo is considered the national sport of japan, so even the Japanese citizens who don't watch sumo have a vested interest in how it's conducted. It's tied with their nation's identity.

That's as may be, I think that makes it not an issue for us gaijin to opine about. If the Japanese want to bring about a change here, that's their business.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Kuroyama

[Zenjimoto 40]

59 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Why are you here then? Looking at your posting history this thread is the first you’ve commented on in over a year and there was a three-year gap before that. I’m curious why you’ve returned now to rant about religion and misogyny. I think you ought to wait for the Guardian opinion piece and share your thoughts there instead of trying to bait fans of sumo here. Your virtue signaling will find a much wider audience on an international newspaper than this obscure forum for a niche sport frequented by a handful of nerds.

Several of you are completely missing the point of the deeper issue of this topic, and I have no interest in arguing with walls.  Why I am or am not appearing in this forum is also none of your concern.  As you were.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

10 minutes ago, Zenjimoto said:

Several of you are completely missing the point of the deeper issue of this topic, and I have no interest in arguing with walls.  Why I am or am not appearing in this forum is also none of your concern.  As you were.

You can’t count me among those people and nothing I’ve said so far could have given you that impression.

[RabidJohn 1,849]

4 hours ago, Zenjimoto said:

Several of you are completely missing the point of the deeper issue of this topic, and I have no interest in arguing with walls.  Why I am or am not appearing in this forum is also none of your concern.  As you were.

...said the pot to the kettle.

Bye then.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

13 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

...said the pot to the kettle.

Bye then.

Man comes on internet to argue. Says he doesn’t want to argue. Classic.

[Kintamayama 45,484]

This is now blowing up to the dreaded kokusai mondai- international scandal. Wide reports on how in  the UK and in the US people are shocked and demanding an immediate change  etc.. etc.. As luck would have it, the jungyo is in Takarazuka today and of course, the mayor is a woman.. She asked to be allowed to greet the fans from the dohyo, and was politely refused by the Kyokai. She said she saw the whole collapse affair on TV and realized that mayors make their speeches from the dohyo, so she wanted to do that too. (sounds a bit naive to me, but that's me..) "I want them to deal with men and women on an equal basis. If  the reason I can't make a speech from the dohyo is because I'm a woman, I'd like to discuss that.." she said.

So much for this blowing over in a few days.. and we still haven't heard from the local politicians..

Edited April 6, 2018 by Kintamayama

[rhyen 1,844]

17 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

As luck would have it, the jungyo is in Takarazuka today and of course, the mayor is a woman.. 

Was the dohyo mounted on a theatre stage, by any chance?

[Kintamayama 45,484]

Just now, rhyen said:

Was the dohyo mounted on a theatre stage, by any chance?

Only men, there too,  interestingly..

[rhyen 1,844]

1 minute ago, Kintamayama said:

Only men, there too,  interestingly..

Without any hints of Adam’s apple?

Edited April 6, 2018 by rhyen

[Kintamayama 45,484]

Just now, rhyen said:

Without any hints of Adams’s apple?

I'd say with more than a hint of Joe's sausage?

 

*OK, sorry. Please suspend me for a while.

[Yatagarasu 352]

Aside from the rightness or wrongness of the 'no women on the dohyo' rule, is there not a work-around that can be implemented to permit participation in trophy-presentations or danpatsu-shiki?  For example, a red carpet on the dohyo or a tatami or little raised platform to step on (edit: as opposed to one alongside).  Then technically they are not actually on the dohyo.  It can be used for all non-sumo participants (i.e. anyone who isn't a rikishi, shinpan, gyoji, yobidashi) regardless of gender.  Personally, it makes my skin crawl seeing politicians mounting the bare sand of the dohyo with outdoor shoes on when everyone else is barefooted, or wearing special footwear.  

Edited April 6, 2018 by Yatagarasu

[sekihiryu 51]

hmmm.

 

well....the interwebs, worldwide have been blowing up about this one. rather than just local channels , the scandal is a global one. Many agencies are really squeezing every bit of juice out of it with dare I say it - "fake news"....before you get "triggered", the narrative being pushed is "first responders" ordered out the ring and prevented from doing their job. "Bystanders" leaping in and an emergency worker on duty, are not the same thing,  and reporting it incorrectly gives a certain narrative more sway. That said this lady doctor was marvellous and should be highly commended. Curiously the first responders narrative can be traced back a female Japanese reporter for AP. 

The gyoji announcer is an absolute moron,  seriously, zero tact nor common sense displayed. This one is on him. This could be handled so much better, Someone ring side could have tactfully ushered the ladies away once the real emergency workers had control of the situation, but no,  this idiot has pretty much stomped a mud hole and created the whole incident. 

The issue core to this story is the females in the ring. personally, I think its time for the rule to go by the wayside.

 

anyway, next time put someone educated, worldly and with a brain on the mic.

[Asashosakari 19,593]

2 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

Aside from the rightness or wrongness of the 'no women on the dohyo' rule, is there not a work-around that can be implemented to permit participation in trophy-presentations or danpatsu-shiki?  For example, a red carpet on the dohyo or a tatami or little raised platform to step on (edit: as opposed to one alongside).  Then technically they are not actually on the dohyo.  It can be used for all non-sumo participants (i.e. anyone who isn't a rikishi, shinpan, gyoji, yobidashi) regardless of gender.

Or invent some sort of traditional-looking mini-consecration ceremony that gets used to mark the daily beginning and the end of the dohyo's actual usage as a place for training or competition to separate that time period from "other usage" like speeches and presentations, regardless of whether those are done by men or women.

[mikawa 1,794]

44 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Or invent some sort of traditional-looking mini-consecration ceremony that gets used to mark the daily beginning and the end of the dohyo's actual usage as a place for training or competition to separate that time period from "other usage" like speeches and presentations, regardless of whether those are done by men or women.

The yumitori-shiki perhaps?

Edited April 6, 2018 by mikawa

[Randomitsuki 2,842]

16 hours ago, Asojima said:

Any chance of getting this split off to its own topic???

Sorry for the delay. New thread is there.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Randomitsuki

[Akinomaki 40,703]

The wide shows reported again that the gyoji only made this scandal announcement after spectators complained that women were on the doyho - and those people also shouted directly to the women and apparently someone from the NSK as well came to urge them to leave: the jungyo promoter told that the helpers actually had been reluctant to go in the first place and had asked him if it were OK to go onto the doyho, which he confirmed.

Now about the ban itself - nobody seems to know exactly what is behind this apparently invention of the Meiji era - as part of the necessity to adopt western standards. (link)

Based on something old, about even wide show regular sumo guest Daishi said he didn't know: sumo was and is still an event to pray for a good harvest (that part is well known), and the goddess responsible for the harvest enjoys men performing for that - and she gets angry when women enter that ground - and disturb her fun. In really old times there was of course no dohyo anyway - the one we know dates to the Edo period.

The dohyo matsuri of the main basho calls the gods (or only this goddess?) to dwell in the dohyo for the 15 days and the kami-okuri ceremony sends them back up - but apparently there is no doyho matsuri like that at a jungyo, so it isn't even "properly" consecrated in the first place.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn 1,849]

18 hours ago, sekitori said:

But what happens during koens in foreign countries?

When they came to the Royal Albert Hall in England in 1991, the stories I remember from the mainstream news were:

1. The size of the Dumptruck (as Konishiki was known on C4 at the time);
2. How many tons of clay were needed to build the dohyo; and
3. The fact that it was consecrated ground (there was footage of the dohyo matsuri) and women weren't allowed to touch it.

Don't trust my memory, though. I don't!

[Fukurou 534]

This all reminds me of a few publicized incidents on airlines in the US in the last year or two - passenger gets ill, flight attendant asks if there is a doctor/nurse on board, female doctor responds. From there it was either they didn't believe she was a doctor and told her to get out of the way or thought she was a nurse and told her to get out of the way when a male medical person arrived. And then airlines profusely apologize when things got out, and their PR takes yet another hit.

I don't think much will change wrt the general "women on the dohyo" situation - participating rikishi, hair cutting, trophy presenting, the usual stuff. It will take much more than this to change those things.  And I hope Mr trainee-gyoji has learned to find out what's going on before blindly making announcements over the PA system based on something he overheard.

OTOH I do think they will make a change for situations regarding emergencies - be it injuries, life saving, something else. If a woman is an emergency responder of some sort and she needs to get up on the dohyo for whatever reason, then she gets up on the dohyo and does what needs to be done, no questions asked. Would the NSK rather have someone die on the dohyo while they wait for their assigned medics to show up from the coffee room down the aisle or wherever they hang out***, or let a female nurse sitting in the first 5 rows come on up and begin treatment immediately? They don't have to publicize a change (unless forced to) because there are always those who would point at it and say "but you let her go up!" (cough - politicians - cough) But they do need to make some sort of small policy change and make sure the right people know about it so they won't get in the way.

Someone upthread mentioned coming up with a quick ceremony to re-bless the doyho and thank the emergency people. Maybe they could check their local shinto place of worship - perhaps one they could use already exists, else maybe one can be created. Or they could just throw a ton of salt on it.

EDIT
***  remember the videos from a year or two back where the rikishi were knocking each other flat out and the unconscious guy would just lay unmoving on the doyho, or worse, get himself upright and then stagger around and nearly fall off the doyho? No one ringside would go up to check on them or help them (though people at ground level did grab at the guy who was falling over the side). They were all standing around, even the gyoji in the ring, waiting for the designated medical people to show up and it seemingly took freaking forever for them to do so. (are the kyokai's ringside medical people actually medical people? I recall someone once said they are not, but I do not know the truth of this)

Edited April 6, 2018 by Fukurou

[Akinomaki 40,703]

20 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

remember the videos from a year or two back where the rikishi were knocking each other flat out and the unconscious guy would just lay unmoving on the doyho, or worse, get himself upright and then stagger around and nearly fall off the doyho? No one ringside would go up to check on them or help them (though people at ground level did grab at the guy who was falling over the side). They were all standing around, even the gyoji in the ring, waiting for the designated medical people to show up and it seemingly took freaking forever for them to do so.

Just in time for this, someone posted that video again today

 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,276]

9 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

 

So much for this blowing over in a few days.. and we still haven't heard from the local politicians..

My feeling is, that this was never going to just blow over. Since I started working in a Japanese company and in and out of Japan 10 years ago so much has changed with regards to women. There were basically only secretaries when I started but now women are every where and getting in to executive and political positions. Hell, last nomikai with engineering stopped by a discount makeup barrel between nijikai and sanjikai, just because so many of the engineers are women now.

One of the su-jo at work told me, if that's how they're gonna treat women they should've just let him die there, in so many words.

If it's true about it being a Western inspired rule then it's as good as gone. Even not, if it's not gone this year it will be gone in the future. There's a lot of women filling the stands, joining koenkai, etc. And one adage older than sumo is "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"