Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

[Eikokurai 3,418]

2 hours ago, Zenjimoto said:

The sheer notion that women are "impure" is ludicrous, and has no place in advanced civilization.  It is utter nonsense, and its time has long passed.

I can’t imagine there are many people actually involved in sumo who believe that about women. The traditions are, I’m sure, upheld for the reason most traditions are: it’s just how things have always been done and nobody has thought to change it. 

[Asashosakari 16,985]

10 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I can’t imagine there are many people actually involved in sumo who believe that about women. The traditions are, I’m sure, upheld for the reason most traditions are: it’s just how things have always been done and nobody has thought to change it. 

There also aren't a whole lot of practical reasons to change it. What's going to run differently if women are no longer banned from the (professional) dohyo? Hair-cutting at retirement ceremonies, and trophy presentations. That's pretty much it, outside of emergency situations like the one that happened here. They're not gonna start having female yobidashi or gyoji all of a sudden. Chalking up a change in the rule as a major victory for women's rights would be, frankly, silly. There are about 700 more important issues to tackle in that realm, including quite a few in Japan I would presume.

Personally I wouldn't have any issue at all if the ban went away, but I'm with Moti - this will blow over in a matter of weeks.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Eikokurai 3,418]

8 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

There also aren't a whole lot of practical reasons to change it. What's going to run differently if women are no longer banned from the (professional) dohyo? Hair-cutting at retirement ceremonies, and trophy presentations. That's pretty much it, outside of emergency situations like the one that happened here. They're not gonna start having female yobidashi or gyoji all of a sudden. Chalking up a change in the rule as a major victory for women's rights would be, frankly, silly. There are about 700 more important issues to tackle in that realm, including quite a few in Japan I would presume.

Personally I wouldn't have any issue at all if the ban went away, but I'm with Moti - this will blow over in a matter of weeks.

Indeed, and that’s why nobody has ever thought about it. The need for change hasn’t really been there.

[Jakusotsu 4,995]

5 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

The need for change hasn’t really been there.

Fusae Ohta might want to disagree.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

4 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Fusae Ohta might want to disagree.

Change requires momentum. I’m not sure example from several decades of just sumo’s modern history is enough to produce much of a need.

[Asashosakari 16,985]

9 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Change requires momentum. I’m not sure example from several decades of just sumo’s modern history is enough to produce much of a need.

One might rather want to start with the fact that female representation among potential trophy presenters is very rare to begin with. I see Tokyo has a female governor these days - is there no prize to present on behalf of the Metropolis or has this just not been made an issue yet this time around?

More generally speaking, one just needs to look at all the pictures posted on the forum of rikishi going back to their hometowns or jungyo department reps going out to sign contracts - how many female mayors have we seen in those? I don't recall more than a handful.

[Yubinhaad 10,760]

I have no time whatsoever for any publication that only deigns to mention sumo when there's a scandal.

This is one of those unfortunate incidents that has "gone viral". I think the Kyokai has handled it reasonably well. Given the fact that the Rijicho himself was moved to make statements, perhaps he (or someone else there) recognised the need for swift responses before the narrative spun totally out of control. How long it will rumble on for is anyone's guess, but at the moment I'm inclined to agree with Kintamayama that eventually it will settle down.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

One might rather want to start with the fact that female representation among potential trophy presenters is very rare to begin with. I see Tokyo has a female governor these days - is there no prize to present on behalf of the Metropolis or has this just not been made an issue yet this time around?

More generally speaking, one just needs to look at all the pictures posted on the forum of rikishi going back to their hometowns or jungyo department reps going out to sign contracts - how many female mayors have we seen in those? I don't recall more than a handful.

A very good point. That momentum I speak of might come if more Japanese women are in public office and as a result the JSA is more frequently put in awkward situations where it has to tell female politicians that they can’t go on the dohyo. 

[Zenjimoto 39]

 

7 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

One might rather want to start with the fact that female representation among potential trophy presenters is very rare to begin with. I see Tokyo has a female governor these days - is there no prize to present on behalf of the Metropolis or has this just not been made an issue yet this time around?

More generally speaking, one just needs to look at all the pictures posted on the forum of rikishi going back to their hometowns or jungyo department reps going out to sign contracts - how many female mayors have we seen in those? I don't recall more than a handful.

Which once again illustrates the very core of the actual issue, which goes far deeper than just sumo: the unequal status of women in society.  Tradition is often nothing more than an obstacle to the progress of civilization.

[Bumpkin 438]

45 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

the real event was day 11 Aki 2007: a woman made it past the guards and stepped on the doyho: the first breach ever of the ban in the 1400 year tradition of sumo

Are there any photos or videos of this incident?

[Benihana 1,750]

Spiegel.de reported yesterday, but i had no time until now. They addressed a thing i wasn't aware of, maybe others know more.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/sumo-in-japan-ersthelferinnen-wegen-ihres-geschlechts-aus-dem-ring-geworfen-a-1201307.html

Sollte sich ein Ringer verletzen oder seine Nase bluten, wird laut japanischen Medien unmittelbar nach dem Kampf der verschmutzte Sandfleck weggekratzt und mit Salz gereinigt. 

Analogous english translation:

According to japanese media, in the case of a rikishi getting injured or having a nose bleed, the soiled spot of sand gets scraped off and purified with salt immediate after the bout.

I can't remember to have seen this. Maybe it was off-camera, maybe it was edited out bei Goldenballs. I'm 100% sure what they say is correct, but how strict are they? After some bouts the whole dohyo would've to be redone, just because tiny, almost invisible sprinkles of blood are all over the place...

Edited April 5, 2018 by Benihana

[Akinomaki 35,609]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

the real event was day 11 Aki 2007: a woman made it past the guards and stepped on the doyho: the first breach ever of the ban in the 1400 year tradition of sumo

1 hour ago, Bumpkin said:

Are there any photos or videos of this incident?

http://blog.livedoor.jp/dqnplus/archives/1032702.html

 

The NSK refused to have the female mayor of Takarazuka give the greeting speech for the jungyo there tomorrow ON the doyho and  demanded from her to do it from below the dohyo like last year. http://rd.kyodo-d.info/np/2018040501002091?c=39546741839462401

Edited April 5, 2018 by Akinomaki

[yorikiried by fate 1,803]

We have the thing in German news: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/sumo-in-japan-ersthelferinnen-wegen-ihres-geschlechts-aus-dem-ring-geworfen-a-1201307.html

That's a pretty rare interest by one of the major portals. This kind of attention is usually reserved for the biggest scandals (Asashoryu, yaocho). Can it have something to do with the current gender issues charge of the world zeitgeist?

 

Translation [not meant to be a professional attempt]:

Women wanted to give first aid --- and were thrown out of the sumo ring

At the Japanese sumo fight women may only watch. Even when several women were giving first aid after an emergency they were turned away. --- For that the sport faces criticism.

Scandals of violence, illegal betting and drug abuse --- and now this: At the traditional Japanese sumo sport several first aid helpers were banned from the ring because of their gender. They had rushed in and given first aid after the major of the city Maizuru hade suffered a stroke during a speech given in the fighting ring.

Video images show how they seem to apply cardiac massage to the unconscious Ryozo Tatami inside a gym near Kyoto --- before they are asked to leave the ring repeatedly by a referee through the PA system. The incident led to heavy criticism by TV commentators and protests on social media.

According to tradition and shinto customs, the dohyo --- the sandy fighting ring worshipped as holy --- must not be befouled. Before every bout the wrestlers perform rituals of purification: they clean their mouths with water and sprinkle salt onto the ring.

Association apologizes for "inappropriate response"

[...]

 

At this point, I realized that the whole thing is a rip-off of the guardian article (which I hadn't read beforehand). This due to the circumstance that the guardian's text of "inappropriate response" turned up in German as "unangemessene Antwort". This would be a very bad use of "Antwort" in German (you would use "Reaktion" instead), and everything suddenly screamed "Bad translation from English by intern with Google translate".

Disappointing.

Quo vadis, journalism...

[Zenjimoto 39]

It was on the FRONT page of BBC News this morning, which is what prompted me to come here to check what's going on.

[Kuroyama 715]

I am reminded of a time a few years back, when I was still a believin' type and was Russian Orthodox.

In general, domesticated animals are not allowed inside Orthodox churches, with an exception carved out for cats for the sake of vermin control. (Plus, the Orthodox just seem to like cats. I know of no monastery that lacks them.) But this rule was set down a very long time ago. At one point, my diocesan bishop issued a directive that seeing-eye dogs were not to be barred from entering a church, since it would be cruel and unmerciful to deprive a blind person of his substitute eyes. If any priest genuinely felt his church would be desecrated by this then he should perform a service of lesser consecration afterward, but he must accommodate the dog. It annoyed the bishop that such a directive should even have been necessary, since he saw this as an obvious necessity, but he wanted to make sure there was clarity.

This is not to equate dogs with women. The point is that if the dohyo is to be considered sacred, there must be a set of taboos associated with it. This is built-in to our sense of the sacred, that there are things we must or must not do in, around, or to sacred things. They are restricted, set aside from ordinary use, and the ordinary rules do not apply. By their very nature, these taboos are arbitrary and may not make any logical sense, but there they are. Does it make any logical sense at all that women may not touch the dohyo? No. Not in the slightest. That's just how it is.

However: All these rules must have exceptions carved out for extraordinary situations. As with the bishop's order on seeing-eye dogs, it should be taken for granted that there is no restriction on women as qualified emergency personnel when an emergency exists. If it is genuinely felt by the NSK that either their members or some of the audience would see this as actual desecration, they should devise a "quickie" reconsecration ceremony to fix it. It's not that hard, and no one's mawashi should get into a twist over it.

Does this even apply to the dohyo used for these jungyo, though? Is it actually even consecrated in the first place?

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kuroyama

[Zenjimoto 39]

4 minutes ago, Kuroyama said:

Does it make any logical sense at all that women may not touch the dohyo? No. Not in the slightest. That's just how it is.

Did it make any sense that women may not vote in many nations' elections until about 100 years ago (or less)?  No.  Not in the slightest.  That's just how it was.

Sorry, but when "rules" and "traditions" discriminate against over half the population simply based on gender, they have no place in society.

[Kuroyama 715]

Just now, Zenjimoto said:

Did it make any sense that women may not vote in many nations' elections until about 100 years ago (or less)?  No.  Not in the slightest.  That's just how it was.

Sorry, but when "rules" and "traditions" discriminate against over half the population simply based on gender, they have no place in society.

I'm talking about the ceremonially sacred, not equal participation in civil society. Religion and civil society do not (and ought not) follow the same rules.

[Zenjimoto 39]

Just now, Kuroyama said:

I'm talking about the ceremonially sacred, not equal participation in civil society. Religion and civil society do not (and ought not) follow the same rules.

Oh yes, they should.  It's high time that "religion" stops riding the free gravy train that often exempts it from human rights violations and other atrocities, just because it's "religion".

[Kuroyama 715]

5 minutes ago, Zenjimoto said:

Oh yes, they should.  It's high time that "religion" stops riding the free gravy train that often exempts it from human rights violations and other atrocities, just because it's "religion".

Religions can restrict their clergy and membership and ceremonies however they want. If we don't like it, we can choose another religion. That's how freedom of religion works, not by forcing religions to change their doctrines to conform to those of the state. We've seen what state control of religion looks like. It's pretty damned ugly. That's why we decided we didn't want it in the US.

Sumo may or may not be exactly "rooted" in Shinto, but it's certainly connected to it, and for whatever reason (and the true reasons for these things are typically forgotten after a century or two) this is one of its rules. Don't like it? Watch a different sport.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kuroyama

[Zenjimoto 39]

I call BS on any "religion" that discriminates against any part of the population, especially gender.  Plain and simple: gross human rights violations.  Choose another "religion"?  Good luck with that in places where they'll chop your head off for that.  It's not at all that simple.

Watch a different sport?  I have been, exactly because I grew tired of some of the archaic BS in sumo, and its inability to put forward meaningful reforms to remedy.  There are many awesome quirky traditions I wouldn't wanna miss (like the way the torikumi or banzuke are made), but other nonsense - like discrimination against women, match-fixing, and hazing/heya violence - among others - are unacceptable, and played a large role in turning me off to the "sport".

[Suwihuto 104]

51 minutes ago, Zenjimoto said:

It was on the FRONT page of BBC News this morning, which is what prompted me to come here to check what's going on.

I heard it on BBC national radio news this afternoon.

[yorikiried by fate 1,803]

50 minutes ago, Zenjimoto said:

Oh yes, they should.

And a gazillion Likes more.

[sekitori 492]

This situation obviously does not concern women in Japan who compete in amateur sumo--as long as they stay off of dohyos used by professional rikishis.

But what happens during koens in foreign countries? I assume the dohyos there are also considered to be sacred ground as they are in Japan and women are not allowed to set foot on them, but that's only conjecture on my part. Are there any instances of women being allowed on the dohyo when ozumo is conducted in counties other than Japan?

Edited April 5, 2018 by sekitori

[Yamanashi 3,052]

Thank goodness the moderators haven't stepped in and suppressed all this religion (or nonreligion) talk ... er ...

 

[Chankomafuji 51]

4 minutes ago, sekitori said:

This situation obviously does not concern women in Japan who compete in amateur sumo--as long as they stay off of dohyos used by professional rikishis. But what happens during koens in foreign countries? I assume the dohyos there are also considered to be sacred ground as they are in Japan and women are not allowed to set foot on them, but that's only conjecture on my part. Am I correct?

No, certainly not. The religious element does not exist in the amateur federations outside Japan. Women competitors train  along with men in a friendly environment. The gyoji is only a referee. A woman gyoji can be seen during a men's bout and a man gyoji can be seen during a women's bout. During a larger amateur tournaments (like a world championship for example) there are attempts by the organizers to make it look more Japanese-like, but nothing in particular. Both men and women do shiko practice for example, but the only reason for it is the physical exercise, nothing to do with banishing demons from the dohyo. 
Literally nothing to do with the professional sumo.