Should-have-been Y/O

[Asashosakari 18,670]

2 hours ago, Shatsume said:

So what happened in the May 2001 Basho with Kaiō? A very unlucky injury or was he just not up to scratch?

Back problems were reported before the tournament, and ultimately also given as the reason for his mid-basho withdrawal.

 

[Yamanashi 3,689]

The following is a comparison of two rikishi.  We follow both of them at the time of their promotion to Ozeki, through 26 basho.

We count wins and losses, but don't count matches lost to kyujo.

Which one is more worthy of promotion to Yokozuna?  Are either worthy?

 

[Fukurou 534]

On 4/1/2018 at 02:59, Swami said:

Wakanohana (III) would have been better off staying at ozeki, possibly Onokuni too.

On 4/1/2018 at 04:33, Eikokurai said:

Yes, in some ways it’s better to be Ozeki than Yokozuna as your career doesn’t have to end with your decline.

Some info about Wakanohana III (hope this isn't a repost)

At M3 for Hatsu 1993 his record was 10-5 and he was awarded the Gino-sho and then promoted to Ke for the March basho, where he won 14-1Y, followed by 10-5, 13-2D (from Se). So there was a new ozeki in September (37 wins as a sanyaku rikishi over 3 consecutive basho).

There are 2 runs of interest to me during the second half of his 29 ozeki basho. During the first he went 12-3Y, 0-4-11, 12-3J, 12-3J, 10-5, 11-4J, 11-4D, 14-1Y, and then was injured, missing all or part of the next 2 basho.

The second run was after he returned from that injury. He finished 8-7, 12-3, 10-5, 10-5, 14-1Y, 12-3Y. The consecutive yusho was what got him promoted to yokozuna. In all as an ozeki: 29 basho, 274-101-60 with 4 Yusho and 5 Jun-Yusho.

His time as yokozuna began with records of 10-5, 12-3J, 9-6, 13-2D, but then he was injured again. He missed all or part of the next 3 basho, then returned to finish at 7-8 during the September 99 basho. He did not take part in the next 2 basho. He started the next tournament at 2-4, and retired. In all, 11 yokozuna basho, 61-38-57, 2 Jun-yusho

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by Fukurou

[Benihana 1,900]

What about rikishi you wanted to see as yokozuna, because you thought they would be perfect to fill the role, but sadly never came near ozeki and who never were expected to become yokozuna by fans/public?

Edited April 15, 2018 by Benihana

[rhyen 1,801]

1 hour ago, Benihana said:

What about rikishi you wanted to see as yokozuna, because you thought they would be perfect to fill the role, but sadly never came near ozeki and who never were expected to become yokozuna by fans/public?

Basically the popular vote?

[Yamanashi 3,689]

Well, that landed with a thud!  Since nobody commented on my above post, I will reveal that Rikishi #1 was Kakuryu and Rikishi #2 was Kaiou.

[Benihana 1,900]

31 minutes ago, rhyen said:

Basically the popular vote?

No, your vote. Someone who you think has a good style and the hinkaku of a yokozuna, but was never hyped and maybe even never reached sanyaku.

[Yamanashi 3,689]

On 4/1/2018 at 04:33, Eikokurai said:

Yes, in some ways it’s better to be Ozeki than Yokozuna as your career doesn’t have to end with your decline.

Has that changed recently?  If Terunofuji had broken through to Yokozuna before his recent ills, wouldn't the YDC be now saying that "Yokozuna Terunofuji should heal himself, and prepare to contend for a basho when he is ready"?  Instead, he's trying to stave off a trip to Makushitaville.

[Yamanashi 3,689]

14 minutes ago, Benihana said:

No, your vote. Someone who you think has a good style and the hinkaku of a yokozuna, but was never hyped and maybe even never reached sanyaku.

Well, Terao.  I haven't been around long, so don't remember any maegashira from the "old days", but if I had to choose a rikishi who at least looked like a Yokozuna, I'd say Gojoro.

 

[Bumpkin 438]

51 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Well, that landed with a thud!  Since nobody commented on my above post, I will reveal that Rikishi #1 was Kakuryu and Rikishi #2 was Kaiou.

Kakuryu, at the time of his Yokozuna promotion, had exactly 1 yusho.

[Yamanashi 3,689]

3 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Kakuryu, at the time of his Yokozuna promotion, had exactly 1 yusho.

From the way the data was presented, could you tell that #1 became a Yokozuna during the 26-basho run, and #2 didn't?

 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

On 4/15/2018 at 22:15, Yamanashi said:

Has that changed recently?  If Terunofuji had broken through to Yokozuna before his recent ills, wouldn't the YDC be now saying that "Yokozuna Terunofuji should heal himself, and prepare to contend for a basho when he is ready"?  Instead, he's trying to stave off a trip to Makushitaville.

See Kisenosato as an example. He’s being allowed to sit out for now but it won’t last indefinitely. If he can’t return at good strength, he will come under pressure to retire. As an ozeki he could just slide down the rankings and nobody would mind. Yokozuna don’t get that luxury: for them it’s all or nothing. They can’t voluntarily get demoted.

[Yamanashi 3,689]

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

See Kisenosato as an example. He’s being allowed to sit out for now but it won’t last indefinitely. If he can’t return at good strength, he will come under pressure to retire. As an ozeki he could just slide down the rankings and nobody would mind. Yokozuna don’t get that luxury: for them it’s all or nothing. They can’t voluntarily get demoted.

OK, here's the example:

Basho              Kisenosato      Terunofuji

2017.03           13-2     Y2e      13-2     O1w

2017.05           6-5-4   Y1e      12-3     O1e

2017.07           2-4-9   Y2e      1-5-9   O1e

2017.09           0-0-15 Y2e      1-5-9   O2e

2017.11           4-6-5   Y2e      0-5-10 S2e

2018.01           1-5-9   Y1w     0-8-7   M10e

2018.03           0-0-15 Y2e      6-9       J5w

Kisenosato was shut down 4 times after his injury, because it isn't fitting to watch a Yokozuna struggle.  Terunofuji came back to the dohyo on Day 11 with the impossible hope that he could pick up even one win and stop the slide down the banzuke; he lost all five.

All I'm saying is that Yokozunae do have the pressure that comes when there is no lower rank to drop to -- but the YDC goes out of their way to keep them active if there's any chance they can regain their powers.

 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

OK, here's the example:

Basho              Kisenosato      Terunofuji

 

2017.03           13-2     Y2e      13-2     O1w

 

2017.05           6-5-4   Y1e      12-3     O1e

 

2017.07           2-4-9   Y2e      1-5-9   O1e

 

2017.09           0-0-15 Y2e      1-5-9   O2e

 

2017.11           4-6-5   Y2e      0-5-10 S2e

 

2018.01           1-5-9   Y1w     0-8-7   M10e

 

2018.03           0-0-15 Y2e      6-9       J5w

 

Kisenosato was shut down 4 times after his injury, because it isn't fitting to watch a Yokozuna struggle.  Terunofuji came back to the dohyo on Day 11 with the impossible hope that he could pick up even one win and stop the slide down the banzuke; he lost all five.

All I'm saying is that Yokozunae do have the pressure that comes when there is no lower rank to drop to -- but the YDC goes out of their way to keep them active if there's any chance they can regain their powers.

 

You and I are not having the same conversation.

My point is simply that a Yokozuna doesn’t have the option of getting demoted to prolong a career. If they underperform, they will be expected to retire eventually. They may be given leeway to get healthy/rediscover their form, but it isn’t forever. Kakuryu was about one basho from a press conference last year. Terunofuji never was. He just accepted demotion and carried on. If you love your sumo career, it may be better to never take the rope as it’s your choice alone when to call it a day. The JSA has never pressured an aging Maegashira to hang up his mawashi.

[Bumpkin 438]

Yokozuna > Ozeki. If Kisenosato is "forced" to retire, so what! He's a Yokozuna! If Terunofuji falls into Makushita, so what! That's Ozumo!

[Eikokurai 3,433]

27 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Yokozuna > Ozeki. If Kisenosato is "forced" to retire, so what! He's a Yokozuna! If Terunofuji falls into Makushita, so what! That's Ozumo!

Thanks for the contribution. 

[Yamanashi 3,689]

8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Thanks for the contribution. 

I'll try to state my point once more, then move on.

If you imagine Kisenosato's record from 2017.05 to now if he weren't a Yokozuna, he'd probably be intai already: he's won 13 bouts in 6 tournaments (Terunofuji  has won 20).  I think both rikishi have career-threatening issues, but if Terunofuji's problem is  diabetes only, there is a chance he can manage it over the short-to-medium range.

You may say, "that's not fair; Kise had two 0-0-15's, while Terunofuji had none."  But Kisenosato fell not even a half-rank from it.  And he left the other basho early, as prescribed by tradition.  No coming back on Day 11 for a Yokozuna (and I don't disagree with that.)

The ranking system in Sumo is tough and unrelenting -- win and advance, lose and fall back.  At the same time, the idea of the Yokozuna is the ideal of a heroic figure in the Greek sense -- larger than life in victory, and poignantly tragic in decline.  In my opinion, the breeding and training of larger, stronger wrestlers makes the occurrence of injuries almost inevitable; but that means short careers as Yokozuna, as we see in other sports (NFL Football comes to mind).  To guarantee at least reasonable length to a Yokozuna career, the YDC/NSK has to give all the benefit of the doubt to an injured Yokozuna [Hakuho is a bit of a freak of nature, though he has also skipped tournaments].  I'm not against this policy; I'm just saying it exists.

 

 

 

[Asashosakari 18,670]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

If you imagine Kisenosato's record from 2017.05 to now if he weren't a Yokozuna, he'd probably be intai already

You mean like Terunofuji is intai right now?  Anyway, you seem to be making the assumption that Kise's records would have been the same against decreasingly-skilled opposition - his physical issue is different from Terunofuji's (who has been simply powerless altogether) and it's quite conceivable that random M10s, let alone juryo opponents, would have been worse at exploiting his bad left side, giving him time to recover even while completing tournaments.

And once you're making that assumption, your line of argument seems to become rather pointless. If it's an injury that completely cripples a rikishi's skills such that he's no longer competitive against anyone, it barely matters if that results in intai after 6-10 months for an ozeki via successive demotions that get to be too much to take, or after 10-14 months for a yokozuna after the YDC loses its patience. Yes, technically the yokozuna version gets to "prolong" his career, but outside of a couple more paychecks it's getting him nothing. And that very limited scenario is far from enough to overcome the obvious advantages ozeki otherwise have in being able to stay active through a lengthy decline phase.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Yamanashi 3,689]

Just now, Asashosakari said:

You mean like Terunofuji is intai right now?  Anyway, you seem to be making the assumption that Kise's records would have been the same against decreasingly-skilled opposition - his physical issue is rather different from Terunofuji's (who has been simply powerless altogether) and it's quite conceivable that random M10s, let alone juryo opponents, would have been worse at exploiting his bad left side, giving him time to recover even while completing tournaments. And once you're making that assumption, your line of argument seems to become rather pointless. If it's an injury that completely cripples a rikishi's skills, it barely matters if that results in intai after 6-10 months for an ozeki via successive demotions that get to be too much to take, or after 10-14 months for a yokozuna after the YDC loses its patience. Yes, technically the yokozuna version gets to "prolong" his career, but outside of a couple more paychecks it's getting him nothing.

Agree (except that if Terunofuji had 13 wins instead of 20, I believe he would be facing intai).  That was my point (so I guess it wasn't pointless).  If Terunofuji's problem is diabetes, there are sometimes dietary and hormonal treatments that can manage the symptoms and return the "energy" of patients.  If Kisenasato's problem is un-healable and he were not shielded by his status, he would probably be in Makushita by now with a 13-20-57 record; anyone with his impressive resume (and age) would retire  rather than face life outside of sekitori.  I probably misunderstand the whole thing, but I'd rather retire as a Yokozuna than as an ex-Ozeki Ms12.

Sorry I didn't stick to my promise and move on, but I deeply respect your opinions and know that you have always tried to be fair in your judgements. So, I wanted to give it one more shot.

 

 

[Asashosakari 18,670]

17 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I probably misunderstand the whole thing, but I'd rather retire as a Yokozuna than as an ex-Ozeki Ms12.

Depends...if the final public appearance is one of obvious inability, I don't think it matters too much if it's 1-4-intai as yokozuna or something like 4-9 as a low juryo. (Assuming an ex-ozeki wouldn't actually compete in makushita, though Terunofuji may yet be testing out that hypothesis.) It looks bad in the moment either way, but it'll be promptly forgotten once the intai is official. Nobody goes to a rikishi's danpatsu-shiki and muses about what the end of his career looked like, and later on the rikishi will always be "former [top rank]", never anything else. Beyond that, it's basically the Wakanohana question - is it better to have been yokozuna at all even if you bombed, or to have stayed ozeki and been allowed to compete to the end of your abilities? If they actually had an opportunity to make the choice, I would assume nearly all rikishi would go for the rope. Besides: Thinking about career longevity as a fan is one thing, but one can make the argument that a rikishi who thinks about ozeki/yokozuna in those terms isn't cut out for the top rank in the first place.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I'll try to state my point once more, then move on.

If you imagine Kisenosato's record from 2017.05 to now if he weren't a Yokozuna, he'd probably be intai already: he's won 13 bouts in 6 tournaments (Terunofuji  has won 20).  I think both rikishi have career-threatening issues, but if Terunofuji's problem is  diabetes only, there is a chance he can manage it over the short-to-medium range.

You may say, "that's not fair; Kise had two 0-0-15's, while Terunofuji had none."  But Kisenosato fell not even a half-rank from it.  And he left the other basho early, as prescribed by tradition.  No coming back on Day 11 for a Yokozuna (and I don't disagree with that.)

The ranking system in Sumo is tough and unrelenting -- win and advance, lose and fall back.  At the same time, the idea of the Yokozuna is the ideal of a heroic figure in the Greek sense -- larger than life in victory, and poignantly tragic in decline.  In my opinion, the breeding and training of larger, stronger wrestlers makes the occurrence of injuries almost inevitable; but that means short careers as Yokozuna, as we see in other sports (NFL Football comes to mind).  To guarantee at least reasonable length to a Yokozuna career, the YDC/NSK has to give all the benefit of the doubt to an injured Yokozuna [Hakuho is a bit of a freak of nature, though he has also skipped tournaments].  I'm not against this policy; I'm just saying it exists.

 

 

 

I think where we’re having trouble is that you have in mind “career-threatening injuries” whereas I was really just thinking about the sort of manageable decline common to all athletes as a result of age and general wear and tear. Kotoshōgiku is an example of what I mean. He’s past his peak but ploughs on regardless as a Maegashira, perhaps with the occasional return to junior sanyaku. Had he somehow made Yokozuna after that yusho in 2016 he’d have properly gone intai already. At 34 and after 16 years on the dohyo his body isn’t able to perform at Yokozuna/Ozeki levels but he can still compete, can still get paid. Why not carry on if that’s what you want to do and loss of rank doesn’t bother you? At the end of the day, for a lot of rikishi sumo is just a job. It’s easy to get caught up in the aura of it all, but before it’s a cultural event sumo is a sport and the guys doing it are athletes earning their crust.

[Akinomaki 39,583]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

If you imagine Kisenosato's record from 2017.05 to now if he weren't a Yokozuna, he'd probably be intai already

You mean like Terunofuji is intai right now?  Anyway, you seem to be making the assumption that Kise's records would have been the same against decreasingly-skilled opposition - his physical issue is different from Terunofuji's (who has been simply powerless altogether) and it's quite conceivable that random M10s, let alone juryo opponents, would have been worse at exploiting his bad left side, giving him time to recover even while completing tournaments

Most likely Kise would not have continued after a drop from sekiwake - there would have been no decreasingly-skilled opposition - the intai assumption is what fits his character

Edited April 18, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Dapeng 232]

On 4/17/2018 at 01:41, Yamanashi said:

Basho              Kisenosato      Terunofuji

2017.03           13-2     Y2e      13-2     O1w

2017.05           6-5-4   Y1e      12-3     O1e

2017.07           2-4-9   Y2e      1-5-9   O1e

2017.09           0-0-15 Y2e      1-5-9   O2e

2017.11           4-6-5   Y2e      0-5-10 S2e

2018.01           1-5-9   Y1w     0-8-7   M10e

2018.03           0-0-15 Y2e      6-9       J5w

Their records are surprisingly similar. But if Kise was also an ozeki, he could have done better than Teru and remained in makuuchi. Kise's ruptured pec muscle had healed only that the muscle's strength did not return back to pre-injury level. Teru's knee injury never healed.

Kise may never regain his pre-injury strength, but if he can manage 9-10 wins every basho, he will be allowed to continue.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Dapeng