Kakuryuu- what next?

[Kintamayama 44,349]

For the first time, Kakuryuu has publicly addressed the issue of what next. Will he be an Oyakata? "I'm half and half on that one. I have to think really hard about this. Do I have what it takes to become an Oyakata? It's no easy thing with many duties," he said today. To become an oyakata, he need to acquire Japanese citizenship. He was also reminded that 6 of his 13 wins were by pulling. "I know the quality of my sumo was poor, but in order to win without my fingers, I had no choice. Last basho, the first ten wins were of a better quality, " he explained. He will be poarticipating in the Haru Jungyo which commences on Saturday.

[maorencze 144]

I saw quite a decent sumo most of the bouts, Kakuryu is too critical of himself. Then again, to get to the top you probably need to be a bit of perfectionist

[Rocks 1,807]

He showed real quality in his match against Ichinojo and that wasn't a pull. He loses that match and it's likely he doesn't win the yusho. 

As far as becoming an Oyakata? I don't know. It's not that I think he would be bad at it, because I don't. But I don't think he would be happy doing it either. Kakuryu has had a fine career and has been a fine Yokozuna but he doesn't seem like a Sumo lifer to me. 

[Yubinhaad 11,545]

There were articles about this after the Hatsu basho - here's one - claiming that some people in the know said Kakuryu had begun the process in Mongolia of obtaining permission (or maybe it's just formal notification, I really don't know) to acquire Japanese citizenship.

[ryafuji 807]

Considering how many successful Mongolians there have been in sumo over the last 20 years or so surprisingly few have gone on to become oyakata... Kyokutenho, Tokitenku, Shotenro are all I can think of.

[Akinomaki 39,763]

19 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Considering how many successful Mongolians there have been in sumo over the last 20 years or so surprisingly few have gone on to become oyakata... Kyokutenho, Tokitenku, Shotenro

and Asasekiryu

[RabidJohn 1,663]

I'm inclined to believe Akebono's statement in his interview with John Gunning a while back that there is little scope for advancement within the NSK for a gaijin toshiyori.

If they're content with starting or taking over a heya and coaching a new generation of rikishi, like Takamiyama, Musashimaru, Kotooshu and Kykutenho for example, they're gonna be fine as an oyakata. But they're on a hiding to nothing if they're ambitious enough to aim for rijicho.

And don't forget 50% of the Mongolian yokozuna so far haven't had the option, which can't be very encouraging, either.

Hakuho has already had some success at raising rikishi to sekitori, but would a man who's spent so long at the top of the pile ever be content with being just another stable boss, no matter how successful?

Has Kakuryu ever shown an interest in coaching before? He doesn't seem to be bringing anyone along at Izutsu.

Edited March 27, 2018 by RabidJohn

[Eikokurai 3,433]

20 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Hakuho has already had some success at raising rikishi to sekitori, but would a man who's spent so long at the top of the pile ever be content with being just another stable boss, no matter how successful?

He’ll be missing a trick if he doesn’t go into television. He could host a rikishi-talent finding contest called The Hakuhō Shō.

[Asashosakari 18,784]

1 hour ago, ryafuji said:

Considering how many successful Mongolians there have been in sumo over the last 20 years or so surprisingly few have gone on to become oyakata... Kyokutenho, Tokitenku, Shotenro are all I can think of.

There haven't been that many who've made the 30 sekitori basho eligibility cut (ignoring the citizenship requirement for the sake of argument), and many who did ended up not having the choice. By sekitori basho count:

Turned oyakata

115 Kyokutenho
86 Asasekiryu
71 Tokitenku
42 Shotenro

Qualified but didn't naturalize

70 Kyokushuzan

Qualified (or were likely to qualify) but not allowed to stay for...reasons other than citizenship

82 Harumafuji (might have stayed if his career had finished differently)
57 Asashoryu (wasn't going to stay even if he hadn't been ousted)
30 Mokonami (did naturalize, was probably going to stay if the yaocho scandal hadn't ruined his plans)
26 Hakuba (also yaocho)
26 Koryu (ditto)

Career not successful enough

21 Kagamio (still active, but won't be getting to 30 basho...I suppose he could still inherit Kagamiyama-beya in 5 years though, needing just 20 for that)
15 Ryuo
13 Hoshihikari (way short of qualification even before yaochogate)
11 Tokusegawa (could possibly have made it, arguably the biggest Mongolian casualty of the yaocho purges)
9 Shironoryu
8 Hoshikaze (yaocho as well, but was IMHO unlikely to get to 30 basho anyway)
5 Oniarashi
5 Sakigake (still active, but finished as a sekitori-caliber rikishi)
2 Sensho
1 Daiyubu

That leaves as still active:

85 Hakuho (might well stay)
73 Kakuryu
61 Tamawashi (who knows, should still have a few more years to think about it)
39 Kyokushuho
35 Takanoiwa (might be burned for his role in Harumafuji's exit)
28 Terunofuji (still young, who knows what his plans are)
---
29 Arawashi
29 Seiro
28 Azumaryu
24 Ichinojo (way too early to say anything)
14 Chiyoshoma (ditto)
3 Daishoho (ditto)
2 Mitoryu (ditto)

Kyokushuho has reached the formal eligibility line, and Arawashi, Seiro and Azumaryu will be doing so soon, but I'm not sure their profile is high enough to receive access to a myoseki in the end. Plenty of Japanese rikishi with similar (or better) careers end up having to leave the Kyokai, too. 

So, at least for the moment it's not like there's a significant number of qualified Mongolian rikishi who elected not to stay in the Kyokai, or who expressed an interest and couldn't find a spot. 4 oyakata sounds about right given the circumstances, especially if the big guns Hakuho and Kakuryu do end up joining them.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,784]

58 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm inclined to believe Akebono's statement in his interview with John Gunning a while back that there is little scope for advancement within the NSK for a gaijin toshiyori.

If they're content with starting or taking over a heya and coaching a new generation of rikishi, like Takamiyama, Musashimaru, Kotooshu and Kykutenho for example, they're gonna be fine as an oyakata. But they're on a hiding to nothing if they're ambitious enough to aim for rijicho.

There are only 1 or 2 rikishi in each generation who will become chief director, and if you weren't at least ozeki (preferably yokozuna) you can forget about it anyway.

But now that there is an expanding number of naturalized oyakata, I'd be very surprised if none of them become directors over the next 10-20 years. No offense intended to Akebono, but I don't think he had the right mindset for ascending the corporate ladder anyway. Takamiyama perhaps did, but he was just too far ahead of the times. The roadblocks he faced will be much less of an issue for this generation's naturalized guys.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Asashosakari

[orandashoho 720]

Great posts, @Asashosakari .
I think that if there is a naturalized oyakata among the "foreigners" with managerial talent and an excellent record of handling non-stable-related tasks in the Kyokai, the Kyokai'd be stupid not to let him ascend the corporate ladder. On each rung of that ladder, a candidate for higher office has to prove himself anyway, and the highest offices are subject to votes. Little need to fear that foreign-born oyakata would be "taking over the Kyokai", and much to gain by using their talents.

[maorencze 144]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

 

Turned oyakata

115 Kyokutenho
86 Asasekiryu
71 Tokitenku
42 Shotenro

So, at least for the moment it's not like there's a significant number of qualified Mongolian rikishi who elected not to stay in the Kyokai, or who expressed an interest and couldn't find a spot. 4 oyakata sounds about right given the circumstances, especially if the big guns Hakuho and Kakuryu do end up joining them.

Missing Tokitenku dearly, he was my favorite, King of Legfighters...anytime his name is brought up I feel so sad.

[Tsubame 356]

5 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

but would a man who's spent so long at the top of the pile ever be content with being just another stable boss, no matter how successful?

Taiho did.

[Asashosakari 18,784]

30 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

Taiho did.

I don't know how content he was with that, at least initially. He was being groomed for high-profile roles and had become an appointed executive and deputy head shimpan within just a few years of his retirement, but the stroke and subsequent health issues he suffered at only age 36 pretty much ended his prospects of ever attaining one of the more public roles on the board; the 16 years he did spend as a director were as head of the sumo school (pretty much the least important post and out of the public eyes) and leading the Nagoya basho department, and he had to stop serving as director for health reasons in his mid-50s already.

Either way, he still was more than "just another stable boss" at least for the middle part of his oyakata career, and even afterwards he was a man of significant standing. I think what RabidJohn was insinuating was more along the lines of, what if Hakuho had to spend his 30 years as oyakata similarly to, say, Minezaki.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Asashosakari

[RabidJohn 1,663]

4 hours ago, orandashoho said:

...the Kyokai'd be stupid...

For an organisation capable of looking like bumbling fools at times, the Kyokai being collectively stupid isn't much of a stretch!

Asashosakari is probably right that naturalised oyakata will eventually find their way to becoming directors as their numbers slowly increase, but even he is talking about a timescale of nearly 40 years from Akebono being told he had no chance (for whatever reason). That's someone like Hakuho having to wait maybe 15 years to become riji. I still think that could be a disincentive, especially as a hypothetical Japanese yokozuna of similar standing would be fast-tracked.

[Stein 30]

50 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

Taiho did.

The mongolian yokozuna, in general, dont have the type of "humbleness" that some japanese great had...No, i dont picture Hakuho as an oyakata.

[Kintamayama 44,349]

31 minutes ago, Stein said:

The mongolian yokozuna, in general, dont have the type of "humbleness" that some japanese great had...No, i dont picture Hakuho as an oyakata.

Kakuryuu seems to have it. Maybe too much of it.

[yorikiried by fate 1,988]

6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

11 Tokusegawa (could possibly have made it, arguably the biggest Mongolian casualty of the yaocho purges)

 

 

Tokusegawa would have won six yusho by now.

 

You heard it here first.

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

How does Takamiyama/Azumazeki fit in this picture?

[Stein 30]

11 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Kakuryuu seems to have it. Maybe too much of it.

I tend to believe that Kakuryu feels a bit drowned in the shoes of a yokozuna...