Immediate after basho news

[Kintamayama 44,354]

The Haru Jungyo starts on April 1st, and I'm not joking.

Takanoiwa is out of the Haru Jungyo. After that? "We will decide carefully," said his Oyakata.

Hakuhou will participate in the Haru Jungyo from day 1. "The toe has become much better during my rest," he said.

Endou is not changing his shikona. "He will continue with his real name," said his Oyakata. "I will continue giving it my all," added Endou when asked what his thoughts on a possible sanyaku berth next basho are. (His TV interview today was one of the most boring and awkward interviews I have ever seen.)

Kensho banners-1825, a new record for regional bashos.

Hakkaku on Kisenosato: "There's no use pressuring him. I just hope when he joins, it will be for the whole 15 days."

Takayoshitoshi did not take part in the Takanohana beya senshuraku party. "It's a heavy responsibility being a shisho," said the shisho.

Takayasu: "I thought I had lost the first match..A win or a loss today made a world of a difference," he said.

Hakkaku's re-election as a rijicho is certain, as no one is running against him.

Hakkaku: "Tochinoshin's yotsusumo is great. This is the sumo I long for..'

Edited March 25, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Rocks 1,807]

6 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Takayasu: "I thought I had lost the first match..A win or a loss today made a world of a difference," he said.

"a world of difference"....things that make you go hmmm......

 

8 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Hakkaku: "Tochinoshin's yotsusumo is great. This is the sumo I long for..'

He is looking better. He has turned a corner mentally I think.  His next bout against Hakuho should be very interesting to watch as that's his final hurdle IMHO.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

7 minutes ago, Rocks said:

"a world of difference"....things that make you go hmmm......

 

Well, a 12-3, 12-3 double jun-yusho run  looks much better than a 12-3,11-4 run, Especially looking at promotion criteria of the near past.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Bumpkin 438]

55 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Well, a 12-3, 12-3 double jun-yusho run  looks much better than a 12-3,11-4 run, Especially looking at promotion criteria of the near past.

No it doesn't! Takayasu is NOT on a Yokozuna run. Win a yusho. Then we'll talk.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

1 minute ago, Bumpkin said:

No it doesn't! Takayasu is NOT on a Yokozuna run. Win a yusho. Then we'll talk.

One of his stablemates begs to differ.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

 

16 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

No it doesn't! Takayasu is NOT on a Yokozuna run. Win a yusho. Then we'll talk.

Kisenosato was promoted with a 12-3 jun yusho and a 14-1 yusho. Basho before that- 10-5.. So, if Takayasu gets a 14-1 yusho, he'll be coming off an EVEN BETTER series of bashos.. There was no talk about a tsuna run before the basho started for Kisenosato. We shall see what happens if Takayasu gets that 14-1 yusho. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Kintamayama

[ALAKTORN 346]

13 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

 

Kisenosato was promoted with a 12-3 jun yusho and a 14-1 yusho. Basho before that- 10-5.. So, if Takayasu gets a 14-1 yusho, he'll be coming off an EVEN BETTER series of bashos.. There was no talk about a tsuna run before the basho started for Kisenosato. We shall see what happens if Takayasu gets that 14-1 yusho. 

Kisenosato had been an ōzeki for over 5 times as long as Takayasu has. Even a 15–0 won’t net a promotion for Takayasu at this point.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Just now, ALAKTORN said:

Kisenosato had been an ōzeki for over 5 times as long as Takayasu has. Even a 15–0 won’t net a promotion for Takayasu at this point.

How long you were an Ozeki was never a criteria. It was back to back yushos. Then, the last two Yokozunae were promoted with a jun yusho and a yusho. That seems to be the new criteria, number of Ozeki basho notwithstanding. But we'll see.

[Tsubame 356]

But Kisenosato show prior to his promotion to yokozuna again and again that he as ozeki was able to achieve doulde-digits and even jun-yusho on a quite regular basis. But if Takayasu keeps performing on his current level the tsuna run is inevitable!

[Asashosakari 18,786]

They did the "maybe we'll promote you with less than two straight yusho" song and dance several times during the Asashoryu days, too, it's just that Kaio/Chiyotaikai/Tochiazuma/Kotooshu never got anywhere close to fulfilling even a softened standard. But back-to-back yusho has essentially been dead for 15 years now, IMHO.

And making things a little bit easier for long-time challengers is a time-honoured tradition both in promotions to ozeki and to yokozuna. Takayasu isn't exactly young, but I don't think he has earned the "benefits" yet that Kisenosato received. (Or Goeido in his ozeki promotion.) Tochinoshin hasn't earned them either, hence my contention voiced elsewhere that 14-10-10 isn't going to be enough for him to become ozeki. Being first-time challenger for the next rank means you've got to be convincing in your run, not just kinda-sorta look the part.

Edit: Just to add for clarification - I'd be very happy to be wrong about Tochinoshin's chances with 10 wins next time.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Chankomafuji 51]

Just because it is uncertain, the natsu basho will be the biggest pressure Takayasu has had in his career. I expect him to gambarize and start with determination not just to perform well, but to win the yusho. It will be the first stress test to show if he has a yokozuna potential. 

[Tsubame 356]

10 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

that 14-10-10 isn't going to be enough for him to become ozeki

Do you really think so?

10 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

being first-time challenger for the next rank means you've got to be convincing in your run, not just kinda-sorta look the part.

Ok, I understand this argument. Not only understanding but also agreeing.

 

But what argument can you bring up to not promote tp ozeki him with 34 victories and an yusho? With 32 or even 33 I would kind to agree, but 34 victories over three bashos is clearly the fulfillment of the requirements for the promotion to ozeki.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Tsubame

[Asashosakari 18,786]

11 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

But what argument can you bring up to not promote tp ozeki him with 34 victories and an yusho?

1) The yusho wasn't achieved while in sanyaku and thus didn't come with the pressure of facing the hardest opponents last.

2) Having the best result of the three-basho run in the first tournament is the least impressive alignment of the three results.

3) The 33-in-3 standard implies that the "target" record for each basho is 11-4. It's a bad look if two of the three results fail to reach that mark.

To quote my edited comment from above:

21 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Just to add for clarification - I'd be very happy to be wrong about Tochinoshin's chances with 10 wins next time.

I mean that. But there are plenty of justifications they can use to not promote him if he only gets 10 in May. Baruto went M3w 11-4 -> S1e 12-3 -> S1e 9-6 -> S1e 12-3, and they basically just pointed to the 9-6 basho and said that that subtracted too much value from his run despite him hitting 32 and 33 wins. (Though granted that he only faced a partial sanyaku schedule in the M3w basho.)

Edited March 25, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 3,923]

37 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

1) The yusho wasn't achieved while in sanyaku and thus didn't come with the pressure of facing the hardest opponents last.

The real problem is that he didn't face one of the M1s, nor the other M3, which would have been on his schedule in sanyaku.  He ended up facing an M9 and a bunch of rikishi ranked below him, including M5w Endo who only faced one sanyaku opponent and only one maegashira ranked above Tochinoshin, and M6e Takarafuji who faced no sanyaku.  That's enough reason to discount that tournament by two wins and say he needs 11 to hit 35/3, if it was all about the numbers.

Honestly though, I don't think the numbers will be as important as showing good quality Ozeki sumo and winning important matches.  If he gets ten and shows good enough form including a win over Hakuho, I think that would be good enough, but 11 wins without beating a Yokozuna and having some sloppy wins and poor-looking losses might not do it.  I'm reminded of Tokushoryu beating Terunofuji on the latter's Ozeki run, making Terunofuji look pretty awful in the process, losing quite handily to someone who had basically never fought any top-ranked rikishi before (only Goeido and Harumafuji earlier in the basho), and thought it might have killed his chances.  He still managed to win the Yusho after Hakuho struggled the last 4 days, and that was enough of a selling point.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Gurowake

[Asashosakari 18,786]

7 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Honestly though, I don't think the numbers will be as important as showing good quality Ozeki sumo and winning important matches.  If he gets ten and shows good enough form including a win over Hakuho, I think that would be good enough, but 11 wins without beating a Yokozuna and having some sloppy wins and poor-looking losses might not do it.

Oh, for sure, I'd be first in line to say that the context matters. But IMHO 11 wins (-> 35) is where the results would look good enough (both single basho and total) for the quality of sumo to be largely disregarded. With 10 wins it's a much more delicate matter for the above-enumerated reasons.

[Bumpkin 438]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

How long you were an Ozeki was never a criteria. It was back to back yushos. Then, the last two Yokozunae were promoted with a jun yusho and a yusho. That seems to be the new criteria, number of Ozeki basho notwithstanding. But we'll see.

Kakuryu had 14-1 D and 14-1 Y. He also beat Hakuho both times. In those 2 bashos, he exhibited Yokozuna sumo and, therefore, deserved the rope. Kisenosato was (and still is) a special case. He had long exhibited Yokozuna sumo, but had never won a yusho. He had 12 jun-yushos, including 3 of the last 4 bashos. Plus- he was Japanese!

[gijo 27]

Yes, ok, but... Hakuho may be present next basho, so.. 

[Kintamayama 44,354]

8 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

Kakuryu had 14-1 D and 14-1 Y. He also beat Hakuho both times. In those 2 bashos, he exhibited Yokozuna sumo and, therefore, deserved the rope. Kisenosato was (and still is) a special case. He had long exhibited Yokozuna sumo, but had never won a yusho. He had 12 jun-yushos, including 3 of the last 4 bashos. Plus- he was Japanese!

Again, this is not a philosophical discussion-we'll have to wait and see. Takayasu with a 14-1 yusho will be promoted.

[maorencze 144]

12 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

But back-to-back yusho has essentially been dead for 15 years now, IMHO.

 

Last I checked, both Hakuho and Harumafuji got back-to-back in that timespan, so I beg to differ.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

6 minutes ago, maorencze said:

Last I checked, both Hakuho and Harumafuji got back-to-back in that timespan, so I beg to differ.

This assertion does not prove Asashosakari's wrong.

[maorencze 144]

2 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

This assertion does not prove Asashosakari's wrong.

Asashosakari mentioned that for 15 years back-to-back yusho has been dead essentially, but judging from the last four promotions its 2:2, so that was not exactly a correct statement, I'd say. Did YDC mention they'd lower the criteria during some failed tsuna runs? Certainly. Would they really? That would surely depend on circumstances, but we'll just never know because those tsuna runs were exactly what I called them - failed.

So I'd say the only way to judge this is to compare with actual promotion during that timespan and result is 2:2 - which means to me that back-to-back is well alive and kicking

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Hakkaku affirms in no uncertain terms that Tochinoshin will be on an Ozeki run next basho. "Naturally, that is the kind of basho it will be," he said. The subtext is  at least 11 wins, and hopefully , finally, a win against Hakuhou. "I'm looking forward to that match-up," said the Rij. "I'd love to see the Olympics in 2020," said Tochinoshin of his dream."I had a few struggles this basho. I could have had more wins.." he added. He doesn't use the O word but sums it up. "Hatsu basho is going to be an important basho.."

Only one of the last 24 Ozekis started his run from Maegashira, and that was Terunofuji, with an 8-7.. Before that, it was Kitao (Futahaguro).

Sakaigawa head judge: "Looking at him from the dohyo side, you can see he is strong. Not being rash, I think 9-10 wins will not cut it. People will mention that he started the run as a hiramaku rikishi.  But he's strong and stable.."

[lackmaker 432]

1 hour ago, maorencze said:

Asashosakari mentioned that for 15 years back-to-back yusho has been dead essentially, but judging from the last four promotions its 2:2, so that was not exactly a correct statement, I'd say. Did YDC mention they'd lower the criteria during some failed tsuna runs? Certainly. Would they really? That would surely depend on circumstances, but we'll just never know because those tsuna runs were exactly what I called them - failed.

So I'd say the only way to judge this is to compare with actual promotion during that timespan and result is 2:2 - which means to me that back-to-back is well alive and kicking

Isn't the point that although back to back yushos will get you promotion it's not essential.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

Aren't professional lawyers trained to miss the point?

[Asashosakari 18,786]

2 hours ago, maorencze said:

Last I checked, both Hakuho and Harumafuji got back-to-back in that timespan, so I beg to differ.

Back-to-back yusho are dead as the minimum standard required. Please either make an effort to follow the discussion before jumping in or check your sophistry tendencies at the door, whichever one applies.