Promotion/Demotion and Yusho discussion Haru 2018

[Akinomaki 39,763]

The rules only demand in a row "yusho or the result that follows it", and this simply runner-up result has the image of having  to follow hard on the heels  of the yusho, but it's all up to the mood of the YDC. They can continue strictly in the same fashion as before, but don't have to. 2 yusho in a row basically force a promotion - only for other cases the YDC really has to vote and decide if they deem the one and his results worthy. They don't grant a promotion completely without yusho anymore - but even that could change again in the future, e.g. when there is no yokozuna for 5 years.

The "yusho equivalent" we keep talking about here is only an idea about what may cause the decision more likely - it has no base in any existing rule.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Chankomafuji 51]

I think The YDC might consider it (and still possibly not approve) only if Takayasu scores a zensho yusho in may.  I can't accept that they can risk by promoting him with anything less when he just started showing that he (might!) be a good ozeki. It is 2 good tournaments as ozeki we are talking about. Way too early.

[WakaTakaFlame 0]

I'll summarize my thought on Takayasu

Pro:

- 2 yun-yushos back-to-back

- Beat Kakuryu (only active Yokozuna) the last 2 tournaments

- 7/11 tournaments in sanyaku with 10+ wins, 3/11 tournaments with 12-3

- Only had bad results when injured recently

- Is Japanese

Contra:

- No yusho

- Never more than 12 wins

- Never really been in contention for the yusho

 

I don't think a 12-3 yusho should be enough. But 14-1 would be okay, if he beats Hakuho and shows great sumo. If he goes 15-0 and beats Hakuho and Kakuryu, he'll get the rope.

[Rainoyama 1,157]

Isn't there a rule that says that at least two Ozeki are needed ? What if Takayasu gets a zensho and Tochi not enough wins. What do they do ? Do they keep Takayasu as Ozeki or promote Tochi ? or a random guy ?

[ryafuji 807]

11 minutes ago, Rainoyama said:

Isn't there a rule that says that at least two Ozeki are needed ? What if Takayasu gets a zensho and Tochi not enough wins. What do they do ? Do they keep Takayasu as Ozeki or promote Tochi ? or a random guy ?

Yes there must always be two ozeki, but what they do is cheat a bit and designate a yokozuna as a "yokozuna-ozeki". (I don't think there's ever been a situation where there have been fewer than two yokozuna and ozeki combined).

Edited March 27, 2018 by ryafuji

[Qwerry 25]

a little statistics:
The result 12-3  ~10% for the cup.
13-2  ~50% for the cup.
14-1  ~90% for the cup.

Takayasu has never been able to win more than 12. So he never demonstrated the ability to fight for cups. 

I think even 15-0 will not be enough for promotion. 

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Qwerry

[lackmaker 431]

1 hour ago, ryafuji said:

Yes there must always be two ozeki, but what they do is cheat a bit and designate a yokozuna as a "yokozuna-ozeki". (I don't think there's ever been a situation where there have been fewer than two yokozuna and ozeki combined).

Don't think it's cheating as such because yokozuna is historically a "special" type of ozeki.

[Asashosakari 18,784]

51 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

Don't think it's cheating as such because yokozuna is historically a "special" type of ozeki.

Of course historically it's also the case that every rikishi below sanyaku is a maegashira, even Hattorizakura, so appeals to history can be tricky.

Anyway, the yokozuna-ozeki appellation originated in the two decades between "yokozuna" being first acknowledged on the banzuke (1890) and the time it was officially recognized as a rank in its own right, separate from ozeki (1909). If they hadn't had any need for the concept until after 1909, I suspect they might have done it differently (perhaps by outright requiring two real ozeki at all times), so it's partly a historical accident that it works the way it does.

[Morningstar 118]

13 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The rules only demand in a row "yusho or the result that follows it", and this simply runner-up result has the image of having  to follow hard on the heels  of the yusho, but it's all up to the mood of the YDC. They can continue strictly in the same fashion as before, but don't have to. 2 yusho in a row basically force a promotion - only for other cases the YDC really has to vote and decide if they deem the one and his results worthy. They don't grant a promotion completely without yusho anymore - but even that could change again in the future, e.g. when there is no yokozuna for 5 years.

The "yusho equivalent" we keep talking about here is only an idea about what may cause the decision more likely - it has no base in any existing rule.

Two Yusho in a row will not even force a promotion as Chiyonoyama (was not promoted after his 2 wins in a row in autumn 49 and spring 50)  demonstrates. He needed a third win to get promoted. This is because the only qualifications are the Strength, Skill, and Dignity to uphold the rank in the judgment of the promoting authority. 

[yorikiried by fate 1,988]

Strength, Skill and Dignity were the original names for the characters who would become Huey, Dewey and Louie, but Walt Disney vetoed because he wanted to turn public attention away from his secret affair with Leni Riefenstahl.

 

True story.

Edited March 27, 2018 by yorikiried by fate

[Yamanashi 3,724]

3 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Strength, Skill and Dignity were the original names for the characters who would become Huey, Dewey and Louie, but Walt Disney vetoed because he wanted to turn public attention away from his secret affair with Leni Riefenstahl.

 

True story.

I heard that back in deep storage at Tokyo Disney is a set of costumes that never saw the light of day, the Seven Sumo Dwarves:

Hinkaku, Chikara, Teppo, Basho, Henka, GrumpyGills and Kawaii.

 

[Flyric 94]

15 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

Isn't there a rule that says that at least two Ozeki are needed ? What if Takayasu gets a zensho and Tochi not enough wins. What do they do ? Do they keep Takayasu as Ozeki or promote Tochi ? or a random guy ?

I remember hearing there's a rule about how there needs to be two Ozeki at all time. What's the history behind it?

[Asojima 2,870]

Yokozuna are considered to be super ozekis if the number of actual ozekis slips below 2.

[Ryoshishokunin 261]

1 hour ago, Flyric said:

I remember hearing there's a rule about how there needs to be two Ozeki at all time. What's the history behind it?

Same as two Sekiwake and two Komusubi: the Three Ranks must be occupied.  

[robnplunder 974]

18 hours ago, Qwerry said:

a little statistics:
The result 12-3  ~10% for the cup.
13-2  ~50% for the cup.
14-1  ~90% for the cup.

Takayasu has never been able to win more than 12. So he never demonstrated the ability to fight for cups. 

I think even 15-0 will not be enough for promotion. 

 

 

That's pretty telling.    Two of his 12-3 bashos came when the fearsome foursome (Hak, Kak, Kise, Haruma) were  mostly not in the basho due to retirement and injuries.  Provided that Hak, Kak, and Kise come back in the next basho, what's Taka's chance of getting an yusho?   Heck, he may not even get 10 wins if the returning Yokozunas stay healthy through the basho.   I'd say Taka's chance of promotion to Yokozuna in the next basho is nil.   Zensho may get a few votes but not enough for the promotion.

[Kintamayama 44,349]

46 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

 

That's pretty telling.    Two of his 12-3 bashos came when the fearsome foursome (Hak, Kak, Kise, Haruma) were  mostly not in the basho due to retirement and injuries.  Provided that Hak, Kak, and Kise come back in the next basho, what's Taka's chance of getting an yusho?  

I hardly think Kise and Hak are fearsome at this stage.  And counting Kise doesn't count, as you have overlooked. So it's actually Hakuhou missing. Even if Hakuhou returns next basho, it's one more win or loss. And against Kakuryuu he's won 3 of their last 4 bouts, including two days ago. He needs to not lose to lesser opponents at the start of the basho. A zensho will get him promoted, regardless of his only ever getting 12 wins at best.   

Edited March 28, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 18,784]

The Haru summary of our ex-sekitori.

new KK: Akua, Kitaharima, Sagatsukasa

new MK: Oiwato, Keitenkai, Sakigake, Takaryu, Chiyootori, Yoshiazuma, Kaonishiki

Not the greatest final round...

Former two-time juryo Kotomisen has decided to call it a day and is the second intai of the basho after Osunaarashi. With two juryo debuts to come in May and thus two additional rikishi becoming ex-sekitori, we'll have 36 guys to track again. Asabenkei leaves the "ex" behind and moves back up to the sekitori ranks.
 

Record	Rank	Shikona	Heya	Age	Out
3-4	Ms2e	Dewahayate	Dewanoumi	29	10
1-6	Ms2w	Daiseido	Kise	25	2
4-3	Ms3e	Tochihiryu	Kasugano	30	1
6-1	Ms3w	Asabenkei	Takasago	29	9
3-4	Ms4w	Tenkaiho	Onoe	33	11
4-3	Ms5w	Akua	Tatsunami	27	1
intai	Ms6e	Osunaarashi	Otake	26	1
4-3	Ms7w	Kitaharima	Yamahibiki	31	3
5-2	Ms8e	Kizenryu	Kise	32	1
2-5	Ms8w	Yamaguchi	Miyagino	28	1
2-5	Ms9e	Toyohibiki	Sakaigawa	33	1
6-1	Ms9w	Jokoryu	Kise	29	11
1-2-4	Ms10e	Kagamio	Kagamiyama	30	11
kyujo	Ms10w	Ura	Kise	25	1
2-5	Ms14e	Nionoumi	Yamahibiki	31	28
3-4	Ms14w	Satoyama	Onoe	36	4
3-4	Ms15e	Tokushinho	Kise	33	14
3-4	Ms15w	Oiwato	Hakkaku	36	26
3-4	Ms18w	Keitenkai	Onomatsu	28	33
3-4	Ms21e	Sakigake	Shibatayama	31	19
1-6	Ms22e	Asahisho	Tomozuna	28	5
6-1	Ms23e	Fujiazuma	Tamanoi	30	6
2-5	Ms24w	Amuru	Onomatsu	34	7
4-3	Ms29w	Sagatsukasa	Irumagawa	36	24
4-3	Ms30e	Chiyoarashi	Kokonoe	26	28
3-4	Ms32w	Takaryu	Kise	26	16
6-1	Ms35w	Toyonoshima	Tokitsukaze	34	9
3-4	Ms49w	Chiyootori	Kokonoe	25	2
7-0 Y	Ms53e	Higonojo	Kise	33	23
5-2	Ms56w	Masunoyama	Chiganoura	27	18
2-5 intai	Sd13w	Kotomisen	Sadogatake	34	26
4-3	Sd33e	Hitenryu	Tatsunami	33	39
4-3	Sd35w	Dairaido	Takadagawa	37	69
3-4	Sd41e	Yoshiazuma	Tamanoi	40	21
3-4	Sd42e	Kaonishiki	Azumazeki	39	39
kyujo	Jd90w	Masakaze	Oguruma	34	32

 

[Benihana 1,901]

I don't think Takayasu stands any chance for winning Natsu Basho and giving him the rope would be a slap in Kisenosato's face.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Benihana

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

Unless it was a 12-3 yusho I am strictly of the "no tsuna run" camp. If he were to get a yusho in Natsu, then that would start a tsuna run for him in Nagoya. But to me unless there is a yusho from him, then no cigar for the moment.

[Akinomaki 39,763]

On 3/27/2018 at 22:55, Morningstar said:

Two Yusho in a row will not even force a promotion as Chiyonoyama (was not promoted after his 2 wins in a row in autumn 49 and spring 50)  demonstrates. He needed a third win to get promoted. This is because the only qualifications are the Strength, Skill, and Dignity to uphold the rank in the judgment of the promoting authority. 

There was no YDC at that time - they started later that year. And they now would have to find a reason to PREVENT a promotion in such a case, by claiming severe lack of hinkaku. The promotion could also be prevented by the head shimpan refusing to start the promotion process (also hard to justify) or by denying the necessary riji-kai majority - also not that easy if the YDC had given the OK.

If they really don't want to promote somebody, they will be able to manufacture some reason, but it is not easy now anymore in case of 2 yusho.

[Yamanashi 3,724]

On 3/28/2018 at 05:13, Kintamayama said:

He needs to not lose to lesser opponents at the start of the basho

This is true, but it shows how small the margin for error is at the Ozeki level.  Since the start of his Ozeki run in 2017, he's been 5-6 against Yokuzuna, 9-1 against Ozeki (not counting fusen), 20-8 against Sek/Kom, 39-9 against M1-4, 2-3 against M5-8, and 1-1 against M9-12.  Only 3 of those losses against M1-4 were during his 3-basho Ozeki run. 

Is 13 losses against Maegashira too many over ~7 basho?  Harumafuji gave away 9 kinboshi during 2017; but he was already "behind the rope".

I guess it's insanely hard to reach Yokozuna ...  as it should be?

[robnplunder 974]

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

I guess it's insanely hard to reach Yokozuna ...  as it should be?

It was.  With the likes of Hak, Kak, Haruama, and Kise around, even a KK for Ozeki was an iffy proposition. For some time, an Ozeki would face 3 Yokozunas, & 3 Ozeki in a basho.  Life was even harder for M1 or M2 then.   They'd face 6 or 7 Yoko/Ozeki to start a basho.   Getting a KK as M1 was hardly possible then.  

With Haru gone, and the rest of Yokozuna having injury issues, not to mention the demise of Kotoshogiku and Terunofuji, I am surprised that Takayasu has not done better so far to make a claim at Yokozuna title.  

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

IMO, should Takayasu get that big 15-0, I'm in agreement with Moti that he would get the rope no questions asked.

14-1 Y, I believe that would warrant "Serious Consideration" for the rope.

13-2 Y, that might be a problem....