Akinomaki 39,936 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) The rules only demand in a row "yusho or the result that follows it", and this simply runner-up result has the image of having to follow hard on the heels of the yusho, but it's all up to the mood of the YDC. They can continue strictly in the same fashion as before, but don't have to. 2 yusho in a row basically force a promotion - only for other cases the YDC really has to vote and decide if they deem the one and his results worthy. They don't grant a promotion completely without yusho anymore - but even that could change again in the future, e.g. when there is no yokozuna for 5 years. The "yusho equivalent" we keep talking about here is only an idea about what may cause the decision more likely - it has no base in any existing rule. Edited March 27, 2018 by Akinomaki 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chankomafuji 51 Posted March 27, 2018 I think The YDC might consider it (and still possibly not approve) only if Takayasu scores a zensho yusho in may. I can't accept that they can risk by promoting him with anything less when he just started showing that he (might!) be a good ozeki. It is 2 good tournaments as ozeki we are talking about. Way too early. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WakaTakaFlame 0 Posted March 27, 2018 I'll summarize my thought on Takayasu Pro: - 2 yun-yushos back-to-back - Beat Kakuryu (only active Yokozuna) the last 2 tournaments - 7/11 tournaments in sanyaku with 10+ wins, 3/11 tournaments with 12-3 - Only had bad results when injured recently - Is Japanese Contra: - No yusho - Never more than 12 wins - Never really been in contention for the yusho I don't think a 12-3 yusho should be enough. But 14-1 would be okay, if he beats Hakuho and shows great sumo. If he goes 15-0 and beats Hakuho and Kakuryu, he'll get the rope. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainoyama 1,157 Posted March 27, 2018 Isn't there a rule that says that at least two Ozeki are needed ? What if Takayasu gets a zensho and Tochi not enough wins. What do they do ? Do they keep Takayasu as Ozeki or promote Tochi ? or a random guy ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 807 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Rainoyama said: Isn't there a rule that says that at least two Ozeki are needed ? What if Takayasu gets a zensho and Tochi not enough wins. What do they do ? Do they keep Takayasu as Ozeki or promote Tochi ? or a random guy ? Yes there must always be two ozeki, but what they do is cheat a bit and designate a yokozuna as a "yokozuna-ozeki". (I don't think there's ever been a situation where there have been fewer than two yokozuna and ozeki combined). Edited March 27, 2018 by ryafuji 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qwerry 25 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) a little statistics: The result 12-3 ~10% for the cup. 13-2 ~50% for the cup. 14-1 ~90% for the cup. Takayasu has never been able to win more than 12. So he never demonstrated the ability to fight for cups. I think even 15-0 will not be enough for promotion. Edited March 27, 2018 by Qwerry 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lackmaker 432 Posted March 27, 2018 1 hour ago, ryafuji said: Yes there must always be two ozeki, but what they do is cheat a bit and designate a yokozuna as a "yokozuna-ozeki". (I don't think there's ever been a situation where there have been fewer than two yokozuna and ozeki combined). Don't think it's cheating as such because yokozuna is historically a "special" type of ozeki. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,872 Posted March 27, 2018 51 minutes ago, lackmaker said: Don't think it's cheating as such because yokozuna is historically a "special" type of ozeki. Of course historically it's also the case that every rikishi below sanyaku is a maegashira, even Hattorizakura, so appeals to history can be tricky. Anyway, the yokozuna-ozeki appellation originated in the two decades between "yokozuna" being first acknowledged on the banzuke (1890) and the time it was officially recognized as a rank in its own right, separate from ozeki (1909). If they hadn't had any need for the concept until after 1909, I suspect they might have done it differently (perhaps by outright requiring two real ozeki at all times), so it's partly a historical accident that it works the way it does. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morningstar 118 Posted March 27, 2018 13 hours ago, Akinomaki said: The rules only demand in a row "yusho or the result that follows it", and this simply runner-up result has the image of having to follow hard on the heels of the yusho, but it's all up to the mood of the YDC. They can continue strictly in the same fashion as before, but don't have to. 2 yusho in a row basically force a promotion - only for other cases the YDC really has to vote and decide if they deem the one and his results worthy. They don't grant a promotion completely without yusho anymore - but even that could change again in the future, e.g. when there is no yokozuna for 5 years. The "yusho equivalent" we keep talking about here is only an idea about what may cause the decision more likely - it has no base in any existing rule. Two Yusho in a row will not even force a promotion as Chiyonoyama (was not promoted after his 2 wins in a row in autumn 49 and spring 50) demonstrates. He needed a third win to get promoted. This is because the only qualifications are the Strength, Skill, and Dignity to uphold the rank in the judgment of the promoting authority. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yorikiried by fate 1,989 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Strength, Skill and Dignity were the original names for the characters who would become Huey, Dewey and Louie, but Walt Disney vetoed because he wanted to turn public attention away from his secret affair with Leni Riefenstahl. True story. Edited March 27, 2018 by yorikiried by fate 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,745 Posted March 28, 2018 3 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said: Strength, Skill and Dignity were the original names for the characters who would become Huey, Dewey and Louie, but Walt Disney vetoed because he wanted to turn public attention away from his secret affair with Leni Riefenstahl. True story. I heard that back in deep storage at Tokyo Disney is a set of costumes that never saw the light of day, the Seven Sumo Dwarves: Hinkaku, Chikara, Teppo, Basho, Henka, GrumpyGills and Kawaii. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyric 94 Posted March 28, 2018 15 hours ago, Rainoyama said: Isn't there a rule that says that at least two Ozeki are needed ? What if Takayasu gets a zensho and Tochi not enough wins. What do they do ? Do they keep Takayasu as Ozeki or promote Tochi ? or a random guy ? I remember hearing there's a rule about how there needs to be two Ozeki at all time. What's the history behind it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,871 Posted March 28, 2018 Yokozuna are considered to be super ozekis if the number of actual ozekis slips below 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ryoshishokunin 267 Posted March 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Flyric said: I remember hearing there's a rule about how there needs to be two Ozeki at all time. What's the history behind it? Same as two Sekiwake and two Komusubi: the Three Ranks must be occupied. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robnplunder 974 Posted March 28, 2018 18 hours ago, Qwerry said: a little statistics: The result 12-3 ~10% for the cup. 13-2 ~50% for the cup. 14-1 ~90% for the cup. Takayasu has never been able to win more than 12. So he never demonstrated the ability to fight for cups. I think even 15-0 will not be enough for promotion. That's pretty telling. Two of his 12-3 bashos came when the fearsome foursome (Hak, Kak, Kise, Haruma) were mostly not in the basho due to retirement and injuries. Provided that Hak, Kak, and Kise come back in the next basho, what's Taka's chance of getting an yusho? Heck, he may not even get 10 wins if the returning Yokozunas stay healthy through the basho. I'd say Taka's chance of promotion to Yokozuna in the next basho is nil. Zensho may get a few votes but not enough for the promotion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 44,480 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, robnplunder said: That's pretty telling. Two of his 12-3 bashos came when the fearsome foursome (Hak, Kak, Kise, Haruma) were mostly not in the basho due to retirement and injuries. Provided that Hak, Kak, and Kise come back in the next basho, what's Taka's chance of getting an yusho? I hardly think Kise and Hak are fearsome at this stage. And counting Kise doesn't count, as you have overlooked. So it's actually Hakuhou missing. Even if Hakuhou returns next basho, it's one more win or loss. And against Kakuryuu he's won 3 of their last 4 bouts, including two days ago. He needs to not lose to lesser opponents at the start of the basho. A zensho will get him promoted, regardless of his only ever getting 12 wins at best. Edited March 28, 2018 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,872 Posted March 28, 2018 The Haru summary of our ex-sekitori. new KK: Akua, Kitaharima, Sagatsukasa new MK: Oiwato, Keitenkai, Sakigake, Takaryu, Chiyootori, Yoshiazuma, Kaonishiki Not the greatest final round... Former two-time juryo Kotomisen has decided to call it a day and is the second intai of the basho after Osunaarashi. With two juryo debuts to come in May and thus two additional rikishi becoming ex-sekitori, we'll have 36 guys to track again. Asabenkei leaves the "ex" behind and moves back up to the sekitori ranks. Record Rank Shikona Heya Age Out 3-4 Ms2e Dewahayate Dewanoumi 29 10 1-6 Ms2w Daiseido Kise 25 2 4-3 Ms3e Tochihiryu Kasugano 30 1 6-1 Ms3w Asabenkei Takasago 29 9 3-4 Ms4w Tenkaiho Onoe 33 11 4-3 Ms5w Akua Tatsunami 27 1 intai Ms6e Osunaarashi Otake 26 1 4-3 Ms7w Kitaharima Yamahibiki 31 3 5-2 Ms8e Kizenryu Kise 32 1 2-5 Ms8w Yamaguchi Miyagino 28 1 2-5 Ms9e Toyohibiki Sakaigawa 33 1 6-1 Ms9w Jokoryu Kise 29 11 1-2-4 Ms10e Kagamio Kagamiyama 30 11 kyujo Ms10w Ura Kise 25 1 2-5 Ms14e Nionoumi Yamahibiki 31 28 3-4 Ms14w Satoyama Onoe 36 4 3-4 Ms15e Tokushinho Kise 33 14 3-4 Ms15w Oiwato Hakkaku 36 26 3-4 Ms18w Keitenkai Onomatsu 28 33 3-4 Ms21e Sakigake Shibatayama 31 19 1-6 Ms22e Asahisho Tomozuna 28 5 6-1 Ms23e Fujiazuma Tamanoi 30 6 2-5 Ms24w Amuru Onomatsu 34 7 4-3 Ms29w Sagatsukasa Irumagawa 36 24 4-3 Ms30e Chiyoarashi Kokonoe 26 28 3-4 Ms32w Takaryu Kise 26 16 6-1 Ms35w Toyonoshima Tokitsukaze 34 9 3-4 Ms49w Chiyootori Kokonoe 25 2 7-0 Y Ms53e Higonojo Kise 33 23 5-2 Ms56w Masunoyama Chiganoura 27 18 2-5 intai Sd13w Kotomisen Sadogatake 34 26 4-3 Sd33e Hitenryu Tatsunami 33 39 4-3 Sd35w Dairaido Takadagawa 37 69 3-4 Sd41e Yoshiazuma Tamanoi 40 21 3-4 Sd42e Kaonishiki Azumazeki 39 39 kyujo Jd90w Masakaze Oguruma 34 32 5 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benihana 1,905 Posted April 1, 2018 (edited) I don't think Takayasu stands any chance for winning Natsu Basho and giving him the rope would be a slap in Kisenosato's face. Edited April 1, 2018 by Benihana Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WAKATAKE 2,637 Posted April 1, 2018 Unless it was a 12-3 yusho I am strictly of the "no tsuna run" camp. If he were to get a yusho in Natsu, then that would start a tsuna run for him in Nagoya. But to me unless there is a yusho from him, then no cigar for the moment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 39,936 Posted April 1, 2018 On 3/27/2018 at 22:55, Morningstar said: Two Yusho in a row will not even force a promotion as Chiyonoyama (was not promoted after his 2 wins in a row in autumn 49 and spring 50) demonstrates. He needed a third win to get promoted. This is because the only qualifications are the Strength, Skill, and Dignity to uphold the rank in the judgment of the promoting authority. There was no YDC at that time - they started later that year. And they now would have to find a reason to PREVENT a promotion in such a case, by claiming severe lack of hinkaku. The promotion could also be prevented by the head shimpan refusing to start the promotion process (also hard to justify) or by denying the necessary riji-kai majority - also not that easy if the YDC had given the OK. If they really don't want to promote somebody, they will be able to manufacture some reason, but it is not easy now anymore in case of 2 yusho. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,745 Posted April 1, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 05:13, Kintamayama said: He needs to not lose to lesser opponents at the start of the basho This is true, but it shows how small the margin for error is at the Ozeki level. Since the start of his Ozeki run in 2017, he's been 5-6 against Yokuzuna, 9-1 against Ozeki (not counting fusen), 20-8 against Sek/Kom, 39-9 against M1-4, 2-3 against M5-8, and 1-1 against M9-12. Only 3 of those losses against M1-4 were during his 3-basho Ozeki run. Is 13 losses against Maegashira too many over ~7 basho? Harumafuji gave away 9 kinboshi during 2017; but he was already "behind the rope". I guess it's insanely hard to reach Yokozuna ... as it should be? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robnplunder 974 Posted April 1, 2018 3 hours ago, Yamanashi said: I guess it's insanely hard to reach Yokozuna ... as it should be? It was. With the likes of Hak, Kak, Haruama, and Kise around, even a KK for Ozeki was an iffy proposition. For some time, an Ozeki would face 3 Yokozunas, & 3 Ozeki in a basho. Life was even harder for M1 or M2 then. They'd face 6 or 7 Yoko/Ozeki to start a basho. Getting a KK as M1 was hardly possible then. With Haru gone, and the rest of Yokozuna having injury issues, not to mention the demise of Kotoshogiku and Terunofuji, I am surprised that Takayasu has not done better so far to make a claim at Yokozuna title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottyJoyJrBebe 97 Posted April 2, 2018 IMO, should Takayasu get that big 15-0, I'm in agreement with Moti that he would get the rope no questions asked. 14-1 Y, I believe that would warrant "Serious Consideration" for the rope. 13-2 Y, that might be a problem.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites