Basho Talk Hatsu 2018 (SPOILERS)

[maorencze 144]

12 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Takayasu looked pretty good too, turning in a proper ozeki performance and seemingly over his injury. I'm wondering how long it will be before he can convert his potential to a yusho. Some time this year by the looks.

Kakuryu also turned in an ozeki-standard performance in the end, but it seemed disappointing after his 10-0 start. I expect he'd have been happy to take it, had he been offered 11-4 before the basho.

Takayasu looked great, he lost some but overall was competitive, even more so than the sole Yokozuna, and with 12-3J I'd say that 14-1Y Haru followed by 13-2J could be enough to warrant tsuna, IF (very big if considering his injury trouble) he can stay that consistent for three basho at least.

Kakuryu just doesn't have the body to compete on true Yokozuna level, it seems. Not through entire length of basho, which is sad, first 10 days were something beautiful to watch and I'm really happy he gave his fans these 10 days, even if they were to be his parting gift. Still remaining worried about his future as Yokozuna, I don't think he got enough left in the tank.

[word20 21]

Is it someone who can make English translation of what they are saying in this video:

Tochinoshin SportsSunday

[RabidJohn 1,629]

9 hours ago, maorencze said:

Takayasu looked great, he lost some but overall was competitive, even more so than the sole Yokozuna, and with 12-3J I'd say that 14-1Y Haru followed by 13-2J could be enough to warrant tsuna, IF (very big if considering his injury trouble) he can stay that consistent for three basho at least.

I have a feeling Takayasu will have to crack the back-to-back yusho or yusho+equivalent barrier to get the rope. A 12-3J is a good result, but it's not a yusho equivalent as he was only technically in contention for a couple of days.

Kisenosato was a special case whose run of jun-yusho in 2016 also added up to the most makuuchi wins for the year, and the combination of the two was his 'yusho equivalent'. There was also the fact that Japan was getting desperate for a home-born yokozuna.

None of that applies for Takayasu at the moment. He needs to win, and I believe he will get his opportunities this year.

Edited January 30, 2018 by RabidJohn

[maorencze 144]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

I have a feeling Takayasu will have to crack the back-to-back yusho or yusho+equivalent barrier to get the rope. A 12-3J is a good result, but it's not a yusho equivalent as he was only technically in contention for a couple of days.

Kisenosato was a special case whose run of jun-yusho in 2016 also added up to the most makuuchi wins for the year, and the combination of the two was his 'yusho equivalent'. There was also the fact that Japan was getting desperate for a home-born yokozuna.

None of that applies for Takayasu at the moment. He needs to win, and I believe he will get his opportunities this year.

Would 13-2 with playoff loss crack it? I'd say that then they would have to take entire three basho span into consideration-or wouldn't they?

[Benevolance 2,459]

I seriously doubt they are in that much of a rush. Takayasu hasn't shown  particularly good numbers in the year since his ozeki promotion and concurrent injury. 

[maorencze 144]

1 minute ago, Benevolance said:

I seriously doubt they are in that much of a rush. Takayasu hasn't shown  particularly good numbers in the year since his ozeki promotion and concurrent injury. 

Well, given Kisenosato's situation and doubtful health of Kakuryu...

Even Hakuho has had his share of minor health struggles recently, and non of them is getting any younger

[Benihana 1,900]

26 minutes ago, maorencze said:

Would 13-2 with playoff loss crack it? I'd say that then they would have to take entire three basho span into consideration-or wouldn't they?

Forget it. He was beaten for the yusho by a maegashira and it was only his second jun-yusho, first as ozeki. Maybe if the complete last year had looked like this basho. And while you are talking about a 13-2...this was only his 3rd basho with 12 wins in his whole career and his 13th double digit makuuchi record in more than 6 years. Maybe they let him pass with a haru yusho and a 13-2 natsu playoff loss. But i don't think that's gonna happen either, because this was his first good basho as ozeki and had only one mediocre ozeki and one injured yokozuna in his path. Heck, Kisenosato had streaks of 3 and 4 jun-yusho in a row, each with at least 3 wins vs. the other (then younger and healthier) Y/O and they didn't promote him. So why should they promote Takayasu with a *meh* jun-yusho and a lost 13-2 doten?

Edited January 30, 2018 by Benihana

[maorencze 144]

Just now, Benihana said:

Forget it. He was beaten for the yusho by a maegashira and it was only his secong jun-yusho. Maybe if the complete last year had looked like this basho. And while you are talking about a 13-2...this was only his 3rd basho with 12 wins in his whole career and his 13th double digit makuuchi record in more than 6 years. Maybe they let him pass with a haru yusho and a 13-2 natsu playoff loss. But i don't think that's gonna happen either, because this was his first good basho as ozeki and had only one mediocre ozeki and one injured yokozuna in his path. Heck, Kisenosato had streaks of 3 and 4 jun-yusho in a row, each with at least 3 wins the vs. other (then younger and healthier) Y/O and they didn't promote him. So why should they promote Takayasu with a *meh* jun-yusho and a lost 13-2 doten?

OK, you convinced me  I was just hoping, you know, for it seems that 2018/2019 is the time to get tsuna, if there ever was one - two yoks halfway to retirement, third showing first cracks received from Father Time, one Ozeki barely worth his title...when else to get it if not in next 10-12 basho?

[Benihana 1,900]

Just now, maorencze said:

OK, you convinced me  I was just hoping, you know, for it seems that 2018/2019 is the time to get tsuna, if there ever was one - two yoks halfway to retirement, third showing first cracks received from Father Time, one Ozeki barely worth his title...when else to get it if not in next 10-12 basho?

In the next 10-12 basho? With strong showings and no injury-setbacks absolutely yes, but not in the next 2 without back-to-back yusho.

[Asojima 2,870]

At the end of Kyushu 17, we had about 14 sekitori (not including Tochinoshin) who were designated as the "next ozeki".  The list may have shrunk in Hatsu 18.  Should we possibly reconstruct the list?

[Shatsume 116]

Mitakeumi
Tamawashi
Takakeisho
Onosho
Hokutofuji
Ichinojo
Yoshikaze
Tochinoshin
Shodai
Abi
Ryuden
Asanoyama
Ura
Enho
Gagamaru

 

Think that covers the speculation, but how many are realistic...

[Benevolance 2,459]

1 hour ago, maorencze said:

OK, you convinced me  I was just hoping, you know, for it seems that 2018/2019 is the time to get tsuna, if there ever was one - two yoks halfway to retirement, third showing first cracks received from Father Time, one Ozeki barely worth his title...when else to get it if not in next 10-12 basho?

I think maybe I misunderstood your initial statement. I'm not dissing Takayasu's potential to grab the tsuna. With the much shorter competitive playing field, if he can demonstrate the level of sumo that he did getting his ozeki promotion, he will probably earn the tsuna. But the YDC isn't going to lower the bar for him. And you're correct - this year seems like the right time to do it.

Kakuryu certainly snagged his promotion by taking advantage of opportune banzuke dynamics; it'll be interesting to see if Takayasu will do the same. 

[Bumpkin 438]

49 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Kakuryu certainly snagged his promotion by taking advantage of opportune banzuke dynamics; 

Kakuryu went 14-1 D and 14-1 Y. He also defeated Hakuho in both bashos. That's Yokozuna worthy.

[Benevolance 2,459]

Sorry, I didn't intend to imply it wasn't.

[yorikiried by fate 1,987]

What speaks for Takayasu is the change in his demeanor, at least as I perceive it. He used to be upset by fuck-ups in the past, in a way that visibly influenced his feelings about his own abilities in follow-up bouts. Now, when he prepares for the bout, he looks like an Ozeki (or even proto-Yokozuna) should look like. This kind of thing projects to the opponents and reinforces his chances of success.

That aside, let's not have Kisenosato's case be anything else than what it is: a historical freak thing, highly political, with numbers that look decent enough (although scraped together over way too many basho), but are also somewhat tainted if you want to interpret the odd bout in the tinfoil way.

It's a pitty, really. If Kisenosato wouldn't have been grounded by his dumbass oyakata in his early career, he may even have learned what this tachi-ai thing is, simply by brawling with the other kids. Then subtract the elders' need to push the homeboys on some shaky pedestal and he might have ended as a very decent, very successful Ozeki with a proper shot at the ropes. And not this farcical persona that he clearly didn't feel comfortable to live up to. Past tense, btw, because he won't be back.

[Dapeng 232]

1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

What speaks for Takayasu is the change in his demeanor, at least as I perceive it. He used to be upset by fuck-ups in the past, in a way that visibly influenced his feelings about his own abilities in follow-up bouts. Now, when he prepares for the bout, he looks like an Ozeki (or even proto-Yokozuna) should look like. This kind of thing projects to the opponents and reinforces his chances of success.

That aside, let's not have Kisenosato's case be anything else than what it is: a historical freak thing, highly political, with numbers that look decent enough (although scraped together over way too many basho), but are also somewhat tainted if you want to interpret the odd bout in the tinfoil way.

It's a pitty, really. If Kisenosato wouldn't have been grounded by his dumbass oyakata in his early career, he may even have learned what this tachi-ai thing is, simply by brawling with the other kids. Then subtract the elders' need to push the homeboys on some shaky pedestal and he might have ended as a very decent, very successful Ozeki with a proper shot at the ropes. And not this farcical persona that he clearly didn't feel comfortable to live up to. Past tense, btw, because he won't be back.

As to Takayasu, we need 1 or 2 more bashos to see. If he can manage 11-12 wins in a basho, he will be the next Japan-born yokozuna to replace Kisenosato.

 

[Bumpkin 438]

15 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

As to Takayasu, we need 1 or 2 more bashos to see. If he can manage 11-12 wins in a basho, he will be the next Japan-born yokozuna to replace Kisenosato.

 

Make that, 13-14 wins AND two yushos, or a yusho and a yusho equivalent.

[Gurowake 3,874]

50 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Make that, 13-14 wins AND two yushos, or a yusho and a yusho equivalent.

I don't think he meant immediately and based on those results.  At least, that's not how I interpreted it.  I thought it meant that it would show that he was actually good enough to make Yokozuna such that he could easily and without worry actually get double digits each basho.

[Dapeng 232]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

I don't think he meant immediately and based on those results.  At least, that's not how I interpreted it.  I thought it meant that it would show that he was actually good enough to make Yokozuna such that he could easily and without worry actually get double digits each basho.

Sure. Most of the ozekies who could average double-digit each basho were eventually promoted to yokozuna. 

[Tsubame 355]

11 hours ago, Benevolance said:

Kakuryu certainly snagged his promotion by taking advantage of opportune banzuke dynamics

The very same applies to Asashoryu and his tsuna-run.

So?

[robnplunder 974]

On 1/29/2018 at 10:59, RabidJohn said:

Congratulations to Tochinoshin on the first hiramaku yusho since I've been watching again - and the first, I believe, to a European.

I ought really to be more of a fan of his. He tries to do the yotzu-zumo I like the most, but up until now I've always thought of him as a rikishi with all the necessary strength, but hampered by injury and lacking in technique. Not this time! Beating all the available sanyaku except the yokozuna was a superlative display of ozeki-quality sumo. Whether he can keep it up and make that rank remains to be seen, but I always appreciate someone doing well so I hope he can have another good showing in March.

The other big surprise for me was Ichinojo. I expected him to crumble as he usually does in the joi, but 10-5 is not to be sniffed at and he didn't look useless in all his losses either. Shades of the form he blasted into makuuchi with, so I'm eager to see if he can maintain it.

Takayasu looked pretty good too, turning in a proper ozeki performance and seemingly over his injury. I'm wondering how long it will be before he can convert his potential to a yusho. Some time this year by the looks.

Kakuryu also turned in an ozeki-standard performance in the end, but it seemed disappointing after his 10-0 start. I expect he'd have been happy to take it, had he been offered 11-4 before the basho.

I really hope Mitakeumi's second week slump after a blinding start was down to injury. He looked disconcertingly helpless in some of the matches he should have won. Still, he hung on to his rank, which is no mean feat.

Some disappointment for my favourite youngsters, Onosho, Hokutofuji and Takakeisho, especially Onosho with a busted knee. I've no doubt they'll bounce back eventually. I'm sure there's at least one future ozeki in that trio.

Nothing turned out according to the script I had in my head before the basho, but that's one of the reasons I find ozumo so fascinating!

 

Someone in this thread wondered if Tochinoshin wasn't taking steroid.   I didn't want to believe that until I heard Tochinoshin giving interview after clinching yusho.  His voice seemed very hoarse which made me think twice about it.   

Agree with Ichinojo & Takayasu's performances.   They both did very well.   Mitakeumi was a big disappointment after his 7-0 start.   Kakuryu's 10-0 start was a big surprise to me.  I didn't think he'd start out that fast after the injuries.

I thought the young trio would fare better especially sans Hak, Kiseno, and Terunofuji most of the basho.   Of the 3, I think Hokutofuji has the best shot at Ozeki.   The other two seems to one dimensional.  

 

 

My final thought on the last basho - with Harumafuji's intai, and the other 3 yokozuna past their prime (more or less), it will be a long time if ever that we will see the likes of those 4 competing in the same basho.    I don't see a similar foursome in the current crop of youngsters.    

[Morty 1,476]

17 hours ago, Asojima said:

At the end of Kyushu 17, we had about 14 sekitori (not including Tochinoshin) who were designated as the "next ozeki".  The list may have shrunk in Hatsu 18.  Should we possibly reconstruct the list?

Next Ozeki list?

Mitakeumi

Hokotofuji

Tochinoshin

Maybe Shodai...

That's it.

 

 

[Benevolance 2,459]

4 hours ago, Tsubame said:

The very same applies to Asashoryu and his tsuna-run.

So?

It doesn't applies to Asashoryu at all. Asashoryu was already an ascendant star and already better than the existent competition. And yes, his yokozuna competition was on its way out, and his fellow ozekis were perennial 8-10 winners, but a competitive void is hardly the same. So no, Asashoryu didn't seize upon banzuke opportunities, unless "being way, way better than all of your competition" counts. :D

[RabidJohn 1,629]

8 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Someone in this thread wondered if Tochinoshin wasn't taking steroid.   I didn't want to believe that until I heard Tochinoshin giving interview after clinching yusho.  His voice seemed very hoarse which made me think twice about it. 

He sounded to me like just about every other rikishi I'm ever heard interviewed. They all seem to speak in the lowest register they're capable of, just like they all talk about "doing my style of sumo" and "taking it one bout at a time"!

What I (and many others apparently) really noticed about Tochinoshin this time was his pinkness, as well as a marked improvement in technique. The former may well be a sign of PES use, I really don't know (and don't much care tbh), but I'm fairly sure steroids aren't known for imparting skills.

[Benevolance 2,459]

I dunno. I watched Cowboy Bebop, and that guy using the "Bloody Mary" drug got super awesome techniques and made him look pinkish and...wait, what do you mean Cowboy Bebop wasn't a documentary?