Rocks

Basho Talk Hatsu 2018 (SPOILERS)

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2 hours ago, maorencze said:

And is it just me or did Ishiura gain like 8-10kgs since leaving Makuuchi?

i had the same impression, he looks chubbier for sure!

 

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My, did Hakuhou look shaky in his bout. As Kintamayama said. This is why I hate the criticism the YDC gave him for his slap and grab tachiai, because he has been working on perfecting that technique for years to such a high level that it's now one of his main weapons. He's putting his wins on the line now, all because some old men decided it wasn't beautiful enough. I really think it's a disgrace to the sport we love that they got to him to such a degree.

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Takayasu looked really fat to me today- his belly especially. Guy probably needs two mirrors to wash his fruit and two veg.

Edited by McBugger
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7 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

My, did Hakuhou look shaky in his bout. As Kintamayama said. This is why I hate the criticism the YDC gave him for his slap and grab tachiai, because he has been working on perfecting that technique for years to such a high level that it's now one of his main weapons. He's putting his wins on the line now, all because some old men decided it wasn't beautiful enough. I really think it's a disgrace to the sport we love that they got to him to such a degree.

You think it's a disgrace to sumo that the guys on the YDC are doing exactly what they're tasked to do? The tsk-tsk'ing about Hakuho's tachiai hardly started with them; they've just given an official voice to something that's been talked about for quite a while.

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20 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

You think it's a disgrace to sumo that the guys on the YDC are doing exactly what they're tasked to do? The tsk-tsk'ing about Hakuho's tachiai hardly started with them; they've just given an official voice to something that's been talked about for quite a while.

I really don’t understand the problem with the slapping tachiai. It’s a superior slapping an inferior– I could understand if someone lower ranked did it to a yokozuna it would seem kind of like really arrogant (was it Ikioi who got “assaulted” as a youngster for a slapfest bout against an older rikishi?), but a yokozuna just lightly touching someone’s face (unlike Terao, Hakuhō hasn’t hit any KOs with it) seems perfectly fine sumō to me… it’s not like Terao’s slap, or a kachiage to the chin, or even a henka, it seems like a perfectly fair move in a sport with tsuki and oshi. Edit: and tsuppari.

Edited by ALAKTORN
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Kakuryu looked keen to go in Kyushu before news of kyujo due to another hampered injury. My gut told me it was a calculated decision since the next basho was fly or intai, that he must be sure to be 100%. Today was incredibly positive and potentially his best match since Kyushu of 2016. Came out aggressive and relentless on Hokutofuji and right when Hok picked the time to fight back with everything Kak pulled the throw down. Brilliant.

A lot of positive to take from the Kise fight. He looked stronger. Not quite pre-injury strength, but he absorbed Takekeisho's oshi attacks which are some of the fiercest in sumo. He just got too eager when he saw Takekeisho up against the bales and went in hard at the wrong moment, which allowed Takekeisho to make a very impressive arm bar throw.

I do worry that the early loss might get into Kise's head. It would be such a shame that when he finally starts to overcome his past injury, his head gets in the way of returning to Yokozuna sumo.

Let's go Mitakeumi! Both Ozeki also looked in good form on Day 1. Could be a very competitive basho if Hakuho's toe is hampering him again.

Also I remember we discussed Kotoshogiku not doing his big stretch on senshuraku in November. Didn't do it again on Day 1. I miss it.

Edited by Tiger Tanaka

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With Asahisho and Terutsuyoshi both in Makushita, who's going to take over as "the salt thrower"? 

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If tsuppari and kachiage are legal you should use it freely, if they have a problem with it, ban it. It's like talking Kaio out of doing his beautiful kotenage, it's as dangerous or even more dangerous than tsuppari and kachiage.

Might aswell make a list of "moves Yokozuna aren't allowed to do" ;-)

Edited by Joaoiyama
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2 hours ago, 808morgan said:

He should go get well and start over, anything he does to himself now will just make things worse.

Not sure that Terunofuji is able to do so. By convention, isn't an ozeki supposed to retire if the drops out of Makuuchi? Or is it if he drops out of the sekitori ranks entirely? 

Edited by Tochinofuji

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5 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

Kakuryū looking the best out of the yokozuna. Kisenosato did better than I expected against Takakeishō.

Does Hakuhō really not have a tachiai without the slap or kachiage…? Edit: (I know some time back he used a “extend both arms to aite’s shoulders” kinda thing but it didn’t look much like a tachiai back then… IIRC it was criticized as weak.)

You really have to love Hakuhos style, so casual. If he is  able to win the basho without his usual tachiai he will again be The Man.

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37 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

If tsuppari and kachiage are legal you should use it freely, if they have a problem with it, ban it. It's like talking Kaio out of doing his beautiful kotenage, it's as dangerous or even more dangerous than tsuppari and kachiage.

Might aswell make a list of "moves Yokozuna aren't allowed to do" ;-)

Yes, it's crazy to have a move legal, but then shame a yokozuna into not using it. If you don't like it, make it illegal for everyone.

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2 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

I really don’t understand the problem with the slapping tachiai. It’s a superior slapping an inferior– I could understand if someone lower ranked did it to a yokozuna it would seem kind of like really arrogant (was it Ikioi who got “assaulted” as a youngster for a slapfest bout against an older rikishi?), but a yokozuna just lightly touching someone’s face (unlike Terao, Hakuhō hasn’t hit any KOs with it) seems perfectly fine sumō to me… it’s not like Terao’s slap, or a kachiage to the chin, or even a henka, it seems like a perfectly fair move in a sport with tsuki and oshi. Edit: and tsuppari.

As I said before, if Kisenosato had been doing well,  they won't say anything about Hakuho's tachiai.

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2 hours ago, Marcus33 said:

You really have to love Hakuhos style, so casual. If he is  able to win the basho without his usual tachiai he will again be The Man.

After just the first day, Hakuho has already been described in this thread as looking chubby, that time is catching up with him, and that he looked shaky in his bout. That description applies far, far more to other rikishis than it does to Hakuho. People seem to forget that he won his bout by using very smart sumo against a talented opponent. 

Why will he AGAIN be The Man? Since he's won 40 yushos, the last one at 14-1 (his closest active competitor, Kakuryu, has won exactly three yushos), and at present there is no one nearly as good as he is, I would say that he already IS The Man. 

Edited by sekitori
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I really liked Enho's win over Jokoryu, I like all the small ones doing so well, even the large short ones like Takakeisho and Onosho is good to see because there hasn't historically been so many short guys in general ever doing too well in sanyaku. 

Terutsuyoshi's win was spectacular too, I picked Asabenkei to win this time, but he's now 5-0 against him. 

Mitoryu looked pretty good, Akua didn't. I like their new mawashi colors.

Takagenji didn't bow again when he entered the ring.......

Aoiyama lost which surprised me, Myogiryu looked really weak too. But I'm glad Azumaryu and Kyokutaisei won, two that I've wanted to get promoted to Makuuchi for awhile. 

Good for Ryuden! Abi lost though.

Ishiura-Yutakayama was my favorite Makuuchi match of the day. Ishiura does look bigger this time. 

Did Kotoyuki knock out Aminishiki or something? That was a strange match.

I can't believe how far Terunofuji is falling. I know he's had knee problems but I can't believe he lost to someone with the physique of Chiyomaru. But Chiyomaru is probably one of the most improved rikishi of the last year.

Has anyone else noticed Mitakeumi has alternated between red and blue mawashis for the last year and half? Kotoshogiku looks close to retiring, of course I've been saying that since May.... That was probably one of the better efforts I've seen though from somebody who already lost.

Kakuryu looked very good I hope out of all the top people he wins the yusho.

Takakeisho won! I'm not to surprised he did but the way he did was surprising. Usually it's Kisenosato who has been winning at the last second like that for the last bunch of tournaments. I felt bad for Kandayu(I think?) getting his first bout wrong as top Gyoji.

Yeah Hakuho definitely was affected by the no-elbow thing. I was surprised how easily Onosho drove him back though. I have to wonder if Hakuho would be performing like Kisenosato and Kakuryu had he been fighting like this the whole time. I know it's completely legal, but so is henka which is largely frowned upon for even those below Yokozuna, (Terunofuji). I agree he shouldn't be ordered not to do it if it's legal, but with 40 championships I can see the YDC's point that he shouldn't have to resort to trying to win by nearly knocking people out (or calling his own monoii...). He's still probably the favorite win though, his challengers have had a hard time of making it to day 10 recently. I do think the elders are really annoyed with him though with the Yoshikaze thing last time and the Harumafuji scandal because he's been doing this kind of sumo for a while now.

 

 

 

 

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I really liked takakeisho's Win, even though i don't care for takanohana-beya rikishi, but kisenosato might have to retire.

onosho didn't have to jup out like that at the end, and aoiyama look like he gave up, sadly after that great oshi.

the hakuho yusho portrait was funny (not the portrait itslef, but the way they revealed it.)

Possible Yusho Winners:

Hakuho, Kakuryu, Goeido

Today's Most Pathetic Losses:

Abi, Aminishiki, Aoiyama

Today's Best Wins:

Takakeisho, Hakuho, Kakuryu

 

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That was flat out embarrassing for Terunofuji against Kotoyuki. What's weird is he looked good and limber prior to the match. 

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Yoshikaze is getting far away from his goal: In the interview as a man of the year (of the dog now = also born in one, 36): "Aiming for oldest ozeki (promotion)"

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Who would have though Hakuho would have looked like the weakest Yokozuna today? He did though. Ichinojo had him beat at the start but couldn't finish.

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3 hours ago, Rocks said:

That was flat out embarrassing for Terunofuji against Kotoyuki. What's weird is he looked good and limber prior to the match. 

Sadly, it looks like Terunofuji will never work out that it's a very bad idea to let his opponent get the inside position with both arms straight off the tachi-ai.

Edited by Otokonoyama
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Bad Wig Man was there today with a friend of his, rather than one of his many daughters. They seemed to be having a great time.

Shodai has really hit a form trough and is stuck in the mid maegashira doldrums.

The three Yokozuna matches were excellent - Kak looks really solid and Kise seems to have regained some of his lost strength.

 

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11 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

If tsuppari and kachiage are legal you should use it freely, if they have a problem with it, ban it. It's like talking Kaio out of doing his beautiful kotenage, it's as dangerous or even more dangerous than tsuppari and kachiage.

Might aswell make a list of "moves Yokozuna aren't allowed to do" ;-)

This is a bit long and will annoy many. Deal with it or move along.

You (and others here) don't seem to understand what sumo is all about, but that's OK. When you will grasp what being a Yokozuna really means in sumo, you will then see what the fuss is all about. Hakuhou doesn't HAVE to do anything. He can keep on slapping his opponents' head off and no one will force him to retire. But he actually KNOWS what being a Yokozuna means, he KNOWS he's moved a way from that a bit lately on a few fronts, and is now trying to make amends. This may sound arrogant, condescending and rude to some of you, but that's how it works in sumo. Stick around for a while, learn the inner workings. I don't think anyone who has followed sumo for at least 5 years thinks that a Yokozuna should be allowed to do whatever he pleases, disregarding tradition etc.There is stuff I don't agree with in all sports, but I can't argue with the tradition. I hate bunts, I hate the offside rule, I don't like the egg- like shape of a football, but I respect those sports and wouldn't dream of going on a  Cricket forum for example and saying it's dumb to wear those stupid clothes and why are the matches so long etc. without having watched for a few years.

Edited by Kintamayama
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Excellent post, Moti. Hit the nail on the head. 

Cor blimey, people on the internet failing to see nuance in a complex issue, what else is new? 

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10 hours ago, sekitori said:

After just the first day, Hakuho has already been described in this thread as looking chubby, that time is catching up with him, and that he looked shaky in his bout. That description applies far, far more to other rikishis than it does to Hakuho. People seem to forget that he won his bout by using very smart sumo against a talented opponent. 

Why will he AGAIN be The Man? Since he's won 40 yushos, the last one at 14-1 (his closest active competitor, Kakuryu, has won exactly three yushos), and at present there is no one nearly as good as he is, I would say that he already IS The Man. 

I think there are a lot of people who would like to see Hakuho falter, to see him give up something of his dominant position. The bar is set so high that simply not winning this basho would provide hope to those people. I am not one of them, I want him to win this basho and prove, yet again, that he is still The Man. If he can do it without the slapping and arm bars, so much the better.

As to his being chubby, he is listed at 156 kilos, isn't that his normal weight?

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I agree completely with Kintamayama and Asashosakari on the topic of Hakuho. I only started watching sumo seriously since September 2017 so I am nowhere near their level in terms of sumo knowledge, but it should be obvious to anyone that sumo highly values tradition, custom, and the proper way of conduction oneself. And Hakuho's sumo, which includes slaps and forearms to the face at the tachiai, just doesn't seem like it would be consistent with the kind of sumo that one would expect from a yokozuna. I mean, he is using tactics that his opponents, because of their lower ranks, choose not employ against him and Hakuho gives the impression that he is cheaply taking advantage of this.

And in response to the argument that those moves are legal: just because one is allowed to do X, does not mean that one should do X. Those are two different things.  Here is an example. In the US, one is legally allowed to call someone by a racial epithet, but it does not mean that one should go around calling people racist names.  That one chooses not to use such words and to respect another person is one measure of a person's character.  The same  concept applies to rikishi. How one chooses to conduct himself in the dohyo is a measure of his character and is more important than the result of the match.  

I may have been carried away with my example, as I listen to a recorded speech by MLK on MLK Day, but I still think my example applies. 

Cheers,

Edited by wys

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