Basho Talk Hatsu 2018 (SPOILERS)

[maorencze 143]

13 minutes ago, Benihana said:

No, it is not. It is a cultural event with heavy religious connotations and a 1200 year old tradition. If they established some pro-sumo league that is managed like any other sports event like boxing/MMA/K1/UFC, THEN it would be absolutely ok for the top dogs to resort to cheap tactics. But in such a system whom being the top dog would be decided just by numbers, not by a council that looks for numbers AND worthiness.

Worthiness measured by "you have to yorikiri or oshidashi and basically try to appeal to the opinion of some random group of people that never set foot on the dohyo" is one of the most bizarre concepts I have ever seen in any part of world and history, I dont want to understand and I sincerely hope I am not alone, for this is really moronic. 

And YDC sumo theories would make most sumo bouts boring as phuck, so...no, this is one part of a tradition I would gladly swap even for Takanohana getting his way in everything (as much as I hate him)

[Tochinofuji 323]

18 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

I mean the sumo is a combat sport than anything else, because if a rikishi cannot win, he will be demoted out of banzuke and disqualified. A yokozuna, first and foremost,  must be competitive to yusho. If he cannot  he will be forced to retire, even though  he is considered as highly in hinkaku.

But even if a rikishi can win, without the other qualities, he can't become a yokozuna. One isn't more important than the other. They are inextricably linked. Both are necessary, but neither on their own are sufficient, to put it in formal logic terms. That is something that makes sumo so distinct, and unlike other combat sports, and why trying to analyze it and the goings on in it in the same way one would analyze boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, or any combat sport (all of which I love dearly) is a poor tactic. 

1 minute ago, Dapeng said:

Well, if there are moves not worthy of yokozuna, then there should be moves not worthy of ozeki and other rikishi too, because every rikishi is expected to exhibit high morality or hinkaku. True, a yokozuna is expected to show high morality, but this does not mean that a hiramaku is NOT expected to show high morality. Every rikishi is equal before the morality. 

Except that's precisely not the case. All rikishi are not equal "before the morality". Yokozuna are special cases meant to stand above the rest, and special considerations apply only to them. 

[Dapeng 231]

8 minutes ago, wys said:

Benihana's point is that win-loss record by itself is not sufficient for promotion, that there are other considerations unique to sumo. His point is not that it is inessential, so your response is neither here nor there.

Your argument is a perfect example of a "straw man" argument:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The argument is about whether sumo is a combat sport. I see sumo having everything a combat sport should have. 

[wys 55]

Just now, Dapeng said:

The argument is about whether sumo is a combat sport. I see sumo having everything a combat sport should have. 

You missed out the crucial words "and more". 

[Tochinofuji 323]

4 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

The argument is about whether sumo is a combat sport. I see sumo having everything a combat sport should have. 

That certainly isn't how the argument has been framed. It's not whether sumo is a combat sport, but whether as a combat sport it is solely about wins and losses such that putting a restriction on an individual rikishi is acceptable.  For all the reasons discussed above, it isn't the same as every other combat sport (if one can accurately say that all other combat sports are essentially the same, which I think is a gross overstatement), and so drawing an analogy to whether it would be acceptable in, say, MMA to limit an athlete's arsenal is inapt. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Tochinofuji

[wys 55]

At this point I think we are wasting too many of our brain cells responding to certain members of this thread. I might have to go kyujo and sit out the next thread.

[Dapeng 231]

4 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

But even if a rikishi can win, without the other qualities, he can't become a yokozuna. One isn't more important than the other. They are inextricably linked. Both are necessary, but neither on their own are sufficient, to put it in formal logic terms. That is something that makes sumo so distinct, and unlike other combat sports, and why trying to analyze it and the goings on in it in the same way one would analyze boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, or any combat sport (all of which I love dearly) is a poor tactic. 

Except that's precisely not the case. All rikishi are not equal "before the morality". Yokozuna are special cases meant to stand above the rest, and special considerations apply only to them. 

In no sports win-loss is everything. Sumo is no difference, may be plus some rituals. 

As to the morality or hinkaku, I can't agree that a hiramaku is allowed a lower level of morality than a yokozuna. A yokozuna is outstanding beyond other rikishi because he wins more than anyone else,  not because his morality is the highest.

[Joaoiyama 286]

Just now, wys said:

At this point I think we are wasting too many of our brain cells responding to certain members of this thread. I might have to go kyujo and sit out the next thread.

At least i learned with this discussion about how important it is for Yokozuna to be "beautifully perfect" in the standards of the sumo universe. Just don't agree that his style of sumo isn't worthy.

[Benihana 1,872]

Again: Do NOT think of sumo as a sport.

Just imagine (i think i posted something similar a few months ago) football developed from a christian ritual. Before each match there is a mass, the lawn gets sprinkled with holy water and when a player enters the field he has to make (HAS TO MAKE) the sign of the cross and girls aren't allowed on the field. Once in a while there is a church service, where the high profile players do ceremonial stuff like kicking the holy free kick from the altar into the font. You want a disrespectful twat known for his dirty fouls standing on that altar, just because he's the best scorer in the league?

I know, i know, not the best example, but i think it helps for a better understanding.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Benihana

[Tochinofuji 323]

1 minute ago, Dapeng said:

In no sports win-loss is everything. Sumo is no difference, may be plus some rituals. 

As to the morality or hinkaku, I can't agree that a hiramaku is allowed a lower level of morality than a yokozuna. A yokozuna is outstanding beyond other rikishi because he wins more than anyone else,  not because his morality is the highest.

And now we've moved the goal posts.  Before, all combat sports were just about wins and losses, and the banzuke was purely so. Now, no sports are about just wins and losses, which is the point we've all been trying to make to you about sumo. I don't think there's much more to say on the topic if we can't even keep the conversation internally coherent. 

[Tochinofuji 323]

4 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

At least i learned with this discussion about how important it is for Yokozuna to be "beautifully perfect" in the standards of the sumo universe. Just don't agree that his style of sumo isn't worthy.

Agreed. I'm with you that I don't think the sumo isn't worthy, and I'm not saying that I like that the separate standard exists. But, ultimately, I think it does, and that is important in the sumo world, whether we outsiders like it or not. 

[Joaoiyama 286]

Sumo is much much more than a sport in the sense that the sport part of sumo is only just a fraction of the whole thing. We shouldn't compare it with any sport, nothing comes even close as the culture and tradition.

[wys 55]

I honestly don't know how this thread got sidetracked into a debate about whether sumo is a sport and if it is, whether it is like a contact  sport.  NONE of it has any bearing on the YDC's opinion or or a single YDC member's opinion that Hakuho's sumo is inconsistent with the dignity of his position.

Edited January 15, 2018 by wys

[Dapeng 231]

27 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

And now we've moved the goal posts.  Before, all combat sports were just about wins and losses, and the banzuke was purely so. Now, no sports are about just wins and losses, which is the point we've all been trying to make to you about sumo. I don't think there's much more to say on the topic if we can't even keep the conversation internally coherent. 

  Let me summarize: the argument came from whether it's fair to criticize Hakuho for using some rule-allowed moves such as face-slapping tachiai. Some people said "yes" because it's unworthy of yokozuna sumo, presumably it's of lower hinkaku for a yokozuna. I said "no" because sumo is a combat sport as boxing or wrestling. Then I said if it's of lower hinkaku for a yokozuna, then it's equally of lower hinkaku for other rikishi. Thus Hakuho should not be picked-out for criticize, instead, the problem moves (face-slap, etc) should be banned for every one.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Dapeng

[Tochinofuji 323]

10 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

  Let me summarize: the argument came from whether it's fair to criticize Hakuho for using some rule-allowed moves such as face-slapping tachiai. Some people said "yes" because it's unworthy of yokozuna sumo, presumably it's of lower hinkaku for a yokozuna. I said "no" because sumo is a combat sport as boxing or wrestling. Then I said if it's of lower hinkaku for a yokozuna, then it's equally of lower hinkaku for other rikishi. Thus Hakuho should not be picked-out for criticize, instead, the problem moves (face-slap, etc) should be banned for every one.

I think the trick is you've lost many of us by stating sumo is at its essence the same as boxing or western wrestling.  For all the reasons set out above, by a number of members, it isn't.  So whether or not it would be "fair" in boxing or wrestling is irrelevant to whether it's "fair" in sumo.

At any rate, we can continue to disagree in PM if you'd like.  I think most would prefer just to get back to commentary on the basho.

To wit: Tochinoshin - why oh why can't my man just stay healthy and fight like this all the time??

Edited January 15, 2018 by Tochinofuji

[Amamaniac 2,066]

Not to change the subject, but I logged on to talk about tomorrow's bouts.  

The ones that I am particularly interested in are Takakeisho v. Tamawashi, Ichinojo v. Kisenosato, and Kakuryu v. Yoshikaze.  In my mind, those have some potential for upsetting the still young apple cart.  

I've had my eye on Tamawashi for a while now.  I think he may have what it takes to get promoted to Ozeki.  However, Takakeisho is a feisty character and won't not go down fighting (sorry about the double negative).  Ichinojo is back on track, and made Hakuho work for his white star on Day 2.  If Ichi can engage Kise in another marathon bout, I'm not sure Kise has the upper body health to force Ichi out or down.  And Kakuryu seems to be back in form, but I'd never bet against Yoshikaze.  He still has lots of spirit in him.  

Let's see how Day 3 shakes down.

[Rocks 1,799]

18 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Then I said if it's of lower mortality for a yokozuna, then it's equally of lower mortality for other rikishi. Thus Hakuho should not be picked-out for criticize, instead, the problem moves (face-slap, etc) should be banned for every one.

And you would be wrong. A yokozuna is not merely a champion. A yokozuna is like being named to the Hall of Fame in another sport, not when you retire,  but at the height of your ability and fame. No other sport has anything like this. And just like other sports people do not get named to the Hall of Fame on their records alone. 

Now a picture:

 

I post this because this, in the minds of many and especially the YDC, is perfection with regards to Sumo. 2 men, chest to chest, testing their strength and ability. THIS is what they want to see, not once in awhile,  but every match. Every basho. Not just to see their favorites win. Favorites, and their fans, come and go. And Sumo, more than any other sport, values and pursues perfection. Sumo doesn't have it's best face each other if they managed to get into the championship match or a few times a year. They face each other every single time Sumo is contested. Slapping or a henka is not perfection. Yokozuna are named Yokozuna because they are the ones expected to produce perfection  at the highest rate. Failing to meet their opponent chest to chest is a Yokozuna thwarting perfection from the start of the match. Regardless of the legality, it is, barring injury or the tactics of the opponent, unworthy of a Yokozuna and even Ozeki. But at least the Ozeki has the excuse of fear of demotion. A Yokozuna has no such excuse. These are the tactics of those who do not think they can ever be an Ozeki or higher unless they do this. In other words, those that already know they do not have the strength and ability to reach such an exalted rank. 

 

Why does the Sumo Association have something as "moronic" as the YDC? It is one of the best things they ever come up with. Unique to Sumo. It is a body of lay people, not rikishi, who are fans. In most cases probably hard core fans of 30 years or more. Ones who have supported rikishi and heyas to the hilt through thick and thin. They represent the fans, well in my opinion.  In insisting on as much perfection as possible they represent not just the Sumo connoisseur but even the lowliest and poorest fan. The kind of fan who may get to a live match once a year. Or in the case of foreigners maybe once in a lifetime. Those fans, with that once, deserve the greatest chance of seeing not just their favorites, but of seeing Sumo performed at it finest. Regardless of outcome. The Yokozuna, more than any other, has the responsibility to give it to them if he can. The Yokozuna doesn't just go last as a courtesy. He is last because a Yokozuna, with one match, can make those leaving think that, regardless of the quality of Sumo that day, they are leaving having seen something special.

Finally,  a Yokozuna should go chest to chest whenever he can for the rikishi. For those who dream just like the Yokozuna did. Rikishi like Daio Yoshinobu .

Rikishi who go throught the ranks hoping one day to put their chest to a Yokozuna's and show their mettle. Achieve their dreams. Even if they spend 57 basho as a sekitori. They may only ever get one chance, like Daio. A Yokozuna owes them his chest. Not a sidestep. Not a slap.

Which is why, even having won a yusho, you will always see stories like this:

Little-man sumo pays off for Harumafuji.

A yokozuna, as the Big man, is never merely about winning. And I don't think it ever should be.

[word20 21]

I have followed sumo a couple of years now and I also agree with Kintamayama. How do you become a yokozuna in the first place? Through winning two consecutive tournaments and showing good sumo and spirit. A yokuzuna can win against lower rated opponents through his skills. Grabbing and slapping and using arm bars can any rikishi use and win against his opponent in the same way as we have seen the henka being used by several rikishi. Then it might work for the opponents using it against Hakuho.

A Yokozuna has the skills to win without these moves and you want to see good moves with a fight and with good skills and a fighting spirit such as moves as Ura's moves or the young rikishi who have won amazing fights. 

[Kintamayama 43,577]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

 

Still, I stick to my opinion that Hakuho does it because he wants tell them: "You won't have me stay as oyakata like this, so I have to do it quick and dirty to go on" - and that he will return to his usual style next basho or even earlier, if he feels this "aesthetic" style causes him to ruin his body more than he is willing to allow.

I of course totally disagree with your theory. If Hakuhou would have wanted to stick it to them he could simply appear for three bashos every year and go kyujo  from the three others, citing an injury. God knows he has enough, and keep his body more or less in good shape till the Olympics. Like he did in 2017, BTW. Much quicker and much dirtier.

[Shatsume 116]

2 hours ago, Benihana said:

Just imagine (i think i posted something similar a few months ago) football developed from a christian ritual.

It could of course be argued that it did indeed develop from a Shrove Tuesday tradition (which in turn may have Pagan history), but that's a discussion for another place...

Not that I disagree with what you are saying, just something people may find interesting to research, I recommend the books of Ronald Hutton.

[Arn 24]

2 hours ago, wys said:

At this point I think we are wasting too many of our brain cells responding to certain members of this thread. I might have to go kyujo and sit out the next thread.

Dapeng seems to be going for the rare 0-15 record in this thread!

[Yukiarashi 193]

I know he's over 40 now but it still feels strange seeing Yoshiazuma losing in lower Sandanme.

Sounds like Toyonoshima got injured again. That's really sad as close as he was to returning to Juryo, I though for sure if a no legged Aminishiki could make it back to Makuuchi surely he could too. He still could but I hope this injury isn't serious. 

Terutsuyoshi had another excellent win and looks very determined after being demoted to Makushita.

Despite his terrible manners, Takagenji looks very powerful so far.

Tsurugisho-Sadanoumi was entertaining. Two monoiis, torinaoshi and a near Utchari at the end.

Chiyonoo, Hidenoumi, and Kyokutaisei all look really good too so far.

As for Makuuchi, Ishiura looks very improved after two days, as does Kagayaki. 

I'm shocked about Terunofuji so far. I didn't think he would be spectacular, but I would have never dreamed of him back a few months ago losing on the mawashi to Chiyomaru and easily to Kotoyuki 

Chiyoshoma looks impressive so far, as does Tochinoshin but what happened to Shodai!? He just hasn't looked right for the last year or so.

Mitakeumi and Tamawashi look very strong so far. I don't think Tamawashi is consistent enough to compete for the yusho but he seems like a strong Ozeki candidate this year. I hope he does make it as overlooked as he was for so many years. He's been such a pleasant surprise this far into his career as he was in the same group as Kitataiki or Toyohibiki up until a year and a half ago.

Both Ozekis look good so far too. Takayasu-Kotoshogiku was the best match of the day and I love how much effort Kotoshogiku has had this tournament. 

I don't know if Hakuho looked weak or Ichinojo looked stronger, but that was an interesting bout. The tachiai didn't really have an effect this time on Hakuho as they had a similar bout in November, but usually when Hakuho throws a large opponent like that he wins right away but Ichinojo withstood it. Hakuho looked in control the whole time but it took him a long time to finish him off. Perhaps Ichinojo got stronger but he needs to find more of a technique than "being heavy". If he can than he has a good chance of getting to Ozeki as he already can go on a minute with Hakuho without much technique other than leaning. 

Kakuryu looked very powerful again. Easily beating a good looking Takakeisho.

Good for Kisenosato. I picked him to lose again today but he looked very determined again and had a good win against Hokutofuji. 

 

 

 

[wys 55]

 

4 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

 

I've had my eye on Tamawashi for a while now.  I think he may have what it takes to get promoted to Ozeki.  However, Takakeisho is a feisty character and won't not go down fighting (sorry about the double negative).

I just rewatched their match in November and it was definitely a spirited affair. It seems like Takakeisho got lucky at the end, and if their Day 3 matchup is anything like their previous encounter, it should be an exciting and close one. 

[Marcus33 10]

I'm thinking maybe Kise is over the hump with his win today, getting some of his Yokozuna confidence back. I hope so anyway.

[sekitori 492]

3 hours ago, Yukiarashi said:

 

I don't know if Hakuho looked weak or Ichinojo looked stronger, but that was an interesting bout. The tachiai didn't really have an effect this time on Hakuho as they had a similar bout in November, but usually when Hakuho throws a large opponent like that he wins right away but Ichinojo withstood it. Hakuho looked in control the whole time but it took him a long time to finish him off. Perhaps Ichinojo got stronger but he needs to find more of a technique than "being heavy". If he can than he has a good chance of getting to Ozeki as he already can go on a minute with Hakuho without much technique other than leaning. 

 

 

 

The object is not to win quickly. It's to just to win. Hakuho never seems to be in a rush. If he can't gain an immediate advantage, he just stays in control until he does. The fact that it may take a while for him to do so doesn't prove that his skills are diminishing or that his opponent is really as impressive as he might seem.

Ichinojo's main asset is being very large while having no technique to speak of. Unless his technique improves significantly (and chances of that happening are slim to none), his "ability" to lean on Hakuho or anyone else for a long time won't get him very far.

I think the primary result of Hakuho's technique being restricted will be that he'll only win two or three yushos this year.