Kintamayama

Shikimori Inosuke sexual harassment and drink talk..

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Who replaced the world I grew up in with this preposterous facsimile?

I remember seeing the England World Cup football (soccer) squad out on the piss the night before a match in Mexico, most of them smoking as well. A lot of the same guys who'd won in 1966, too... 

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On 05/05/2021 at 04:02, Yamanashi said:

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.    No.

Can you expound on this a bit? I was under the impression that in right to work states you can basically fire people for any reason. I'm not a US citizen so this isn't obvious to me.

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3 hours ago, dada78641 said:

Can you expound on this a bit? I was under the impression that in right to work states you can basically fire people for any reason. I'm not a US citizen so this isn't obvious to me.

I won't get into the minutiae here (and avoid arguments), but in the US not choosing to be in a union does not abrogate your basic rights.

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Posted (edited)
On 06/05/2021 at 16:34, Yamanashi said:
On 06/05/2021 at 12:59, dada78641 said:

Can you expound on this a bit? I was under the impression that in right to work states you can basically fire people for any reason. I'm not a US citizen so this isn't obvious to me.

I won't get into the minutiae here (and avoid arguments), but in the US not choosing to be in a union does not abrogate your basic rights.

No reason for arguments, it's straightforward. Prior to Right to work laws, and ongoing in states without them, a company and a union could agree to make a place of employment a  closed shop, meaning a condition of employment for that company required you to join the union and pay dues whether you wanted to or not. Right to work laws state that you are not, that is true even if a union and company negotiate and agree to the employment conditions at a company.  A recent Supreme Court decision has basically made the entire USA Right to Work. But that is enforceable by the Federal Labor Department and so far has not been enforced by Democrat administrations which will no doubt cause the issue to come up again with the Supreme Court. 

As far as what you can be fired for unless it falls under wrongful termination laws, most of which deal with basic civil rights, you can be fired without cause in any state unless you or a union representing you has negotiated better terms via a contract.  Every professional athlete would fall under such a contract and in most cases would have a separate contract for themselves which is why better players get better deals. You can also negotiate away a significant portion of your rights if you choose to. This is true in any contract. For instance everyone has a right to freedom of speech yet Non-Disclosure agreements are very common. Non-disclosure means you don't get to talk about it without violating the agreement and incurring the penalties stated in that agreement for doing so.  Certain speech, such as reporting a crime, can not be negotiated away.  But if you sign a deal saying you don't talk the press and don't keep a cell phone, that's your business.  Everyone has a right to liberty, that is free movement outside of criminal penalties by the state.  Yet it's perfectly legal for you to sign a contract that states you will remain in your house 24X7, save government required functions and health emergencies, if you wish to and face contractual, that is financial,  penalties if you do not. 

Edited by Rocks
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On 08/05/2021 at 23:31, Rocks said:

[all that stuff]

Thanks for clarifying! Very interesting. Yeah, it makes sense to me that you could just sign a contract that says "I won't use social media even in my spare time". It actually makes sense for some jobs, like say if you're employed by a country's secret service. As I understand it CEOs of publicly traded companies are also restricted in various ways since what they say moves markets.

I should clarify that what I was thinking of was more along the lines of being told by your boss you can't use social media in your spare time anymore without such a restriction ever having been part of your contract (which I'm guessing is what happened in sumo, although maybe there's some kind of dubious catch-all clause that allows them to change the rules however they like at any time). In such a case I don't think the employer could argue in front of a judge that this is justifiable according to the contract, judging by what you're saying.

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5 hours ago, dada78641 said:

Thanks for clarifying! Very interesting. Yeah, it makes sense to me that you could just sign a contract that says "I won't use social media even in my spare time". It actually makes sense for some jobs, like say if you're employed by a country's secret service. As I understand it CEOs of publicly traded companies are also restricted in various ways since what they say moves markets.

I should clarify that what I was thinking of was more along the lines of being told by your boss you can't use social media in your spare time anymore without such a restriction ever having been part of your contract (which I'm guessing is what happened in sumo, although maybe there's some kind of dubious catch-all clause that allows them to change the rules however they like at any time). In such a case I don't think the employer could argue in front of a judge that this is justifiable according to the contract, judging by what you're saying.

I don't know how Japanese contract law works (obviously!), but I know that it's possible to write very broad employment rules to give the employer all kinds of discretion in these manners.  And in a system like Ozumo where most of the employees are in a "company town" arrangement (board with the supervisor, eat company-provided meals in the company cafeteria, etc.) almost anything might be possible, especially with the social pressure within the heya system and the apparent lack of significant pushback from the general public .

Honestly, the rules for rikishi and geisha would probably run up against anti-slavery laws in many countries.

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I believe that while the NSK should make some considerations in the interest of their survival, Millennials, Generation Z and now Generation Alpha are increasingly slackers and whiners.

Sumo is more than a sport, it's a spiritual journey that an initiate undertakes, and recent generations don't have the fortitude to endure the lows in order to achieve the highs.

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2 hours ago, athelitextreme said:

I believe that while the NSK should make some considerations in the interest of their survival, Millennials, Generation Z and now Generation Alpha are increasingly slackers and whiners.

Sumo is more than a sport, it's a spiritual journey that an initiate undertakes, and recent generations don't have the fortitude to endure the lows in order to achieve the highs.

OK, Boomer

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26 minutes ago, Sakura said:

OK, Boomer

Actually, I'm not a Boomer. I'm Generation X, the last of the boys to men. (Westwins...)

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55 minutes ago, athelitextreme said:

Actually, I'm not a Boomer. I'm Generation X, the last of the boys to men. (Westwins...)

Prove it: recite "End of the Road" by heart.

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7 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Prove it: recite "End of the Road" by heart.

1. You can choose to believe me or not. 2. I'm not familiar with "End of the Road" by Heart.

;-)

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14 hours ago, athelitextreme said:

I believe that while the NSK should make some considerations in the interest of their survival, Millennials, Generation Z and now Generation Alpha are increasingly slackers and whiners.

Sumo is more than a sport, it's a spiritual journey that an initiate undertakes, and recent generations don't have the fortitude to endure the lows in order to achieve the highs.

Very interesting belief. I believe that dividing people into 15-year demographic cohorts and calling them "generations" as if the average parents have their first child at the age of 15 helps with very little and leads to dreary 4000-word articles essentially about the passage of time.

At least the baby boom was a real phenomenon so that cohort is sort of useful to identify...

To address your latter point, there are more professional rikishi today than there were 50 years ago, so I'm not sure where you're coming from with it.

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6 hours ago, athelitextreme said:

1. You can choose to believe me or not. 2. I'm not familiar with "End of the Road" by Heart.

;-)

 

 

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8 hours ago, Atenzan said:

Very interesting belief. I believe that dividing people into 15-year demographic cohorts and calling them "generations" as if the average parents have their first child at the age of 15 helps with very little and leads to dreary 4000-word articles essentially about the passage of time.

At least the baby boom was a real phenomenon so that cohort is sort of useful to identify...

To address your latter point, there are more professional rikishi today than there were 50 years ago, so I'm not sure where you're coming from with it.

I recently read an article about the decline of Japanese youths willing to enter Sumo, so the sport is increasingly needing to rely on foreigners to survive. It described a weekend event that was held for youths aspiring to become Rikishi. On the first day, only two youths showed up and on the second day, there were none.

I searched for the article, to post the link for reference, but I can't seem to find it. I'll continue searching though, as I read many Sumo related articles that day, so it's a matter of finding in which article it was written.

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5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

 

Of course, I'm familiar with Boyz II Men. You mentioned Heart, so I figured there's another song with the same title of which I'm unaware.

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7 hours ago, athelitextreme said:

I recently read an article about the decline of Japanese youths willing to enter Sumo, so the sport is increasingly needing to rely on foreigners to survive. It described a weekend event that was held for youths aspiring to become Rikishi. On the first day, only two youths showed up and on the second day, there were none.

I searched for the article, to post the link for reference, but I can't seem to find it. I'll continue searching though, as I read many Sumo related articles that day, so it's a matter of finding in which article it was written.

Would it happen to be the article you linked in this thread of yours recently?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Would it happen to be the article you linked in this thread of yours recently?

Yes, that is part of it, under the section Lack of New Talent in Sumo. Now that I reread it and my memory is refreshed, I see that it wasn't a period of a weekend, but several years instead.

My comment about Sumo relying more and more on foreign wrestlers, is from a different article which provided current numbers.

Thank you!

Edited by athelitextreme

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1 minute ago, athelitextreme said:

Yes, that is part of it, under the section Lack of New Talent in Sumo. My comment about Sumo relying more and more on foreign wrestlers, is from a different article which provided current numbers. Thank you!

I think you need to re-read the part about the two and zero applicants, then.

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1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

I think you need to re-read the part about the two and zero applicants, then.

I was revising my comment as were you posting. :-) I believe that it having been over several years instead of a couple days only makes the situation worse.

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36 minutes ago, athelitextreme said:

I was revising my comment as were you posting. :-) I believe that it having been over several years instead of a couple days only makes the situation worse.

It wasn't over several years, it was at those two specific points in time which the (rather bad in general) summary article cherrypicked. There are some 700 active rikishi on the banzuke, do you really believe that two new applicants is the norm?

(It's not only cherrypicked, it's also highly misleading. Because of the way the recruiting works, there have always been tournaments with small incoming classes.)

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14 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

It wasn't over several years, it was at those two specific points in time which the (rather bad in general) summary article cherrypicked. There are some 700 active rikishi on the banzuke, do you really believe that two new applicants is the norm?

(It's not only cherrypicked, it's also highly misleading. Because of the way the recruiting works, there have always been tournaments with small incoming classes.)

Everyone can interpret the information as they wish. I have no dog in the fight, so I hope you're right, for the sake of Sumo. I wish nothing more than for it to thrive and attract fresh recruits willing to make the necessary sacrifices. It will only happen if the NSK recognizes and addresses the challenges, even if they're not of their making.

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6 minutes ago, athelitextreme said:

. I have no dog in the fight,

This topic has degenerated into a real dog not worth fighting about.

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This idea that sumo is suffering from "the newer generations" being "slackers" is such complete nonsense I had to do a double take to make sure you weren't joking. Sumo is done only by people who enjoy hard, unforgiving daily power training, and obviously that's only going to be a very small percentage of people no matter what generation you're looking at. This idea that young people are all lazy is such an obvious "old person yells at cloud" thing, totally ignoring all the changes in society and economics over the past decades, it's shocking people still make the argument in earnest. OK, I guess I know why, it's so they can feel better about themselves.

Also I don't know why you're including Generation Alpha among the "slackers", seen as how the oldest of them are around 10 years old now.

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2 hours ago, dada78641 said:

This idea that sumo is suffering from "the newer generations" being "slackers" is such complete nonsense I had to do a double take to make sure you weren't joking. Sumo is done only by people who enjoy hard, unforgiving daily power training, and obviously that's only going to be a very small percentage of people no matter what generation you're looking at. This idea that young people are all lazy is such an obvious "old person yells at cloud" thing, totally ignoring all the changes in society and economics over the past decades, it's shocking people still make the argument in earnest. OK, I guess I know why, it's so they can feel better about themselves.

Also I don't know why you're including Generation Alpha among the "slackers", seen as how the oldest of them are around 10 years old now.

You're describing the individuals who enter Sumo and stick to it, not those who left or never joined at all. It's fine if people wish to wear blinders, but there are news stories after news stories that describe how the aforementioned generations are building no security for themselves and instead are relying on their parents and/or society.

Interestingly, I recall an amateur Sumo wrestler from the Netherlands, who whined that he didn't attempt to join the professional ranks because of the tough lifestyle it would require. Search it online, the comments can easily be found.

Generation Alpha was included, because I mentioned that the generations "are increasingly slackers", as it seems to be getting worse as time marches.

As Asojima stated, this thread seems to headed nowhere, so I won't respond to anymore comments on this subject. If some people feel everything is roses and sunshine, and youths are clamoring to enter the heyas, more power to them. I genuinely wish it to be true.

 

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