Shikimori Inosuke sexual harassment and drink talk..

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,291]

12 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

For the record, I never said that they dined in a hotel room, but rather that they had dinner together privately (without any other guests at the table) in the hotel.  Nor did I claim that the young gyoji entered Shikimori's room ...

For me, dining in a public restaurant with somebody from the same org while working on the road is no where near sordid or strange, so that's why I assumed inside a private room when you said 'private'. I mean, it happens all the time when I travel for business and I've never felt any sexual tension ever.

Anyway, in Japan, the responsibility of making sure all the drunk people are away safely from a in-company drinking party always falls to the lowest rank (ie youngest) so some very new guy distributing drunks back to their hotel is not strange either. (My experiences have all been with needing to drive situations in places without good public transport coverage)

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The case regarding gyoji (or oyakata, kabuki, etc.) names is that there ARE names given to have it mean nth generation - there was none here, so it is just the 10-generation.

Yes, I know that, but in this sentence there is no room for reaching interpretation like that, like you are saying. Like how 40代 is in your 40s. 

[orandashoho 720]

The problem for the Kyokai is deeper than that of an individual member's unbecoming conduct. The Kyokai has several options of dealing with that: issuing a reprimand, imposing a fine, withdrawing salary, suspending, demoting, or banning a member.
But Shikimori Inosuke is the 40th incarnation of a Name. Names are everything, Names are eternal, and individuals holding a name are but a feather in the wind. The honour of a Name must be protected, people have to live up to their Name and the worst thing they can do is to besmirch it with scandal. And Shikimori Inosuke is not just any Name, it is a Name that serves as one of the pillars on which the whole idea of an undying tradition rests. This Name is essential to the hierarchy in the organization. Against its importance the individual Nouchi Itsuo is nothing.

And now the Kyokai has virtually no choice but to try and clear the Name, because it is unthinkable that it could be found in a state that leaves it open to scandal and the possibility of bribery. The holder of the Name has proven to be unable to mend his ways, he could err again and worse, his vulnerability is known to many and now the general public knows about it too. He and his transgressions have to be prized loose of this Name because the Names of the Tate-gyoji above all others ought to be inscrutable. 
This is why there has been no Kimura Shonosuke for more than two years -- when the 37th incumbent to that name retired, the 40th Shikimori Inosuke was not deemed worthy of promotion to that Name, and there were no other candidates.
While retirement seems the obvious course, there is the difficulty of finding a suitable replacement. There always must be at least one Tate-gyoji. The candidate ought to have served a long career in the gyoji-kai's gamut of roles and perform excellently at all of them, have held the role of Sanyaku gyoji for some time, have the political acumen to lead this large group and speak for them, be able to serve as a shinto priest and vessel for the spirits at ceremonies, and have a spotless record in their judging....Do any of the four sanyaku gyoji qualify?

Edited January 7, 2018 by orandashoho

[Akinomaki 41,844]

1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Yes, I know that, but in this sentence there is no room for reaching interpretation like that, like you are saying. Like how 40代 is in your 40s. 

I quoted you just because you already said what was the point, not to correct anything you wrote. I simply added more information to answer the original question.

[Amamaniac 2,092]

Tsuchinoninjin (and Akinomaki), I appreciate your replies to the very misleading remarks I made earlier in this thread, and for those I apologize.  It was not my intent to troll, but rather to point out an inherent problem in the system and open a dialogue.  We are just coming out of the Harumafuji assault scandal, and there has been a reckoning of sorts that violence exists in many sport contexts, not just sumo (see Shuji Miki's recent Yomiuri article), and that reform is necessary.  

The Shikimori Inosuke sexual harassment scandal, however, has opened yet another unpleasant door: the problem of sexual abuse within sports.  It is not something that any normal person wants to ponder, let alone discuss.  It is particularly disturbing when it involves adults taking advantage of their positions of authority to act inappropriately with the minors under their charge.  Sadly, this happens in the West and also in the East (I'm not saying it is the norm, but it happens).  And in my mind wherever it does occur, it is "sordid".

Like organized junior sports, sumo is set up in such a way that it creates opportunity for abuse (violent and/or sexual).  Dare I compare the situation in sumo to the Catholic Church?  In my mind, there are similarities.  I'm not saying that Inosuke is a pedophile, but he or someone else in positions of authority within sumo could possibly be one or take actions that resemble one.  The inclusion of minors within an organization that involves communal nakedness (not unlike other sports), communal sleeping arrangements, alcohol (often excessive) consumption, and a code of silence is unfortunately flawed.  Certainly, it is common knowledge that the family system has the same inherent flaws.

You are definitely right to state that there is nothing strange about two people from the same organization dining in a public restaurant.  And in your experience, such settings do not create "sexual tension".  But, we are not dealing with adult business professionals here, we are dealing with a 58 year-old man and a teenaged boy.  The man in question is the highest-ranked individual in his profession (gyoji) and the boy is technically under his charge.  Just being alone socially creates an inappropriate situation, and alcohol provides an excuse if bad behaviour occurs.  (It's more complicated than that, but I hope you get my point.)

It will be interesting to see how the Kyokai rules on this matter.  But to me it seems clear that reform is necessary and it is not an easy fix.

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Amamaniac

[Morty 1,518]

As an Australian I have grown up in a heavy drinking culture and am consequently an experienced heavy drinker (in the local idiom "a total pisshead"). And it is certainly possible to get black out drunk. But the one time I went out drinking in Osaka, the new friends I made in the whisky bar I ended up in, got me as drunk as I have ever been. They just kept buying me drinks. The way they drank was unbelievable. 

[Akinomaki 41,844]

Mostly a bunch of unnerving guest at the wide shows - this part from sukkiri about this 2nd scandal generation is quite good, with many gyoji information and video footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8insLkGCnQY

The channel I got my wide show coverage from is now void of videos - not a good sign.

What we surely can expect is that we'll have no Tenno visit to the basho this time.

[Burajirotono 99]

New keyboard; yay!

Now i walk around like a crazy person with a keyboard plugged in my laptop....

 

...I guess probaly the sumo world is full of gays like any other enviroment with too much sausages and too little oysters (army, football, church...)...

Anyway this case is quite disgusting (no matter the sex of the victim).

He deserves to be banned.

Im not a square guy and there was many times when i had memory lapses because of booze and other stuff, but i never did gay things or  teenage abuse when i was fucked up, this is the most shitty excuse i ever heard.

The most sad part is - imo - this have nothing to do with reformation but just part of this backstage open war thing.

Harumafuji´s case open the Pandora box? 

[Churaumi 753]

I think the Harumafuji incident may have caused people to feel a little better about coming forward to get these other incidents into the light. These kinds of incidents shouldn’t happen. The usual kyokai policy of closed-door reprimands and minimization of bad publicity doesn’t actually do anything. Even if this really was the first time Shikimori did something like this, he has had numerous other alcohol related incidents in the past apparently, and they are unbecoming a person in his position. I’m all for giving numerous chances and not throwing away people who try. But, I also wouldn’t put him in a position of power or leadership until he got himself sorted. Sounds like he’d done that for a while, fell off the wagon, and unfortunately let himself down and the young gyoji too. I think this is less some “internal war” and more a failure to meet standards of conduct. The recent scandals just made it easier to come forward.

[Burajirotono 99]

Weeeell...Maybe so. I think this is kind of naive but...Maybe so. 

[Yatagarasu 352]

This is abhorrent, aggravated by the fact that the victim was a minor and the massive breach of trust; the boy was in his charge and he should have been taking care of him.  Inosuke has to go and I hope that the kyokai does the decent thing.  

I do not see anything wrong with two professionals dining together in a public place per se, even with the age difference, and especially in light of the pater familias nature of the heya system.  Private dining rooms are also very common in Japan, so this aspect is not the big deal it may sound, except as a possible indicator of premeditation.  But an incident of this nature could have just as easily happened between two stragglers trying to see each other home safely after a communal meal or in a bar in the five minutes it takes for a third person to go to the bathroom.  Any decent mentor or co-worker acting professionally would not abuse being alone with a co-worker as an opportunity to behave inappropriately and plenty don't.  We also must not forget that the age and rank difference effectively creates a heavy social obligation on the more junior of the two to accept the invitation.

As to why the victim has not been named, this is par for the course in many western countries, regardless of age, particularly where a matter is prosecuted.  But do we need to know anyway?  The boy didn't make the complaint himself, so probably didn't want this to go further for whatever reason known to him, maybe out of fears of stigma or shame or not wanting to cause a public scandal.  It's not up to other people to then name him publicly.  Instead of looking for inter-heya conspiracies to diminish the credibility of the whistleblower, is it not possible that a more senior gyoji reported it because he felt he had a moral responsibility and to act as a shield for the younger one who may have been afraid to speak up?   

As for opening a 'Harumafuji's Box', I hope that things move rapidly towards more transparency, accountability and prompt reporting.  As unpalatable as it may be to think of, Amamaniac raises a valid point concerning sumo's format lending itself to opportunism for abuse (whether psychological, violent or sexual).  Perhaps the kyokai will have this on its radar now rather than a flash in the pan...

[Akinomaki 41,844]

Already before this one emerged, the tabloids had speculated about the revealing of the "ordinary" sexual harassment next, mainly by rikishi at dinner parties to female staff and guests.

The box was opened and is kept open.

[Churaumi 753]

The kyokai has been operating on a “looks good, is good” basis for a long time. It’s going to be increasingly hard for them to keep these affairs hidden from the public. There’s a lot of that going around these days. It’s going to be ever harder to keep people in visible positions who are not living up to ideals. The days of having a public face of honor and dignity while doing mischief when no one is looking are almost over. People get caught now, and the best way to avoid scandals is simply to not put people in positions where they will not be able to withstand scrutiny. That’s not naive, that’s pretty realistic.

[Bumpkin 438]

What is the age of consent in Japan?

[Kintamayama 47,311]

Oh, come on.. Sumo? Closed door secrets? Sure. Baseball. Football- Premier League. Basketball. At the highest levels, if it's bullying, steroids, touching young football players' penises by coaches- every sport has its secrets that everyone close knows about, including the press, including the names. It's not "sumo's traditional ways are coming apart." It's a world trend , from #metoo to Hollywood and politics as well - the world is changing. With anyone being able to become a reporter in a second with their mobile phones and Facebook , it's simply very hard to keep secrets anymore. This hypocritical tsk tsking about how deep sumo has fallen is total nonsense. No professional sport is devoid of secrets and closet skeletons. "Oh, but sumo is unlike any other sport!!". Oh. It sure isn't. The PEOPLE are like any other people with their  egos and gluttony and boners and personal flaws and general mindset of "I am a star now so I report to no-one." Sumo has always been riddled with public scandals  and probably many more behind the scenes ones which never reached General Public. As long as we're dealing with humans, it will never change.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Burajirotono 99]

For sure Kintamayama. Actually...To a brazilian guy these sumo scandals seems very soft. Here we got a football player (of the national selection) being processed for rape in Italy...Other one (national selection too, played a world cup) stabed a guy with a knife over some hooker trouble...

My guess is: Probally much darker stuff had heapend in sumo and for many reasons (includind the cell phone/social media thing) now they are being bring to light.

But to me really seems like there is a backstage war  going on....Lots of money in the sport, lots of hierachic disputes, changing of guards comming...

[Asashosakari 20,274]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

"Oh, but sumo is unlike any other sport!!". Oh. It sure isn't.

There's always been a subset of sumo fans who've got into the sport with some sort of modern-day "noble savages" outlook on it...so exotic, so respectful, so not debased by Western culture. "It's so different, it just has to be better!" Those tend to be the ones who seem genuinely shocked anytime the people involved in it turn out to be no better and no worse than people anywhere else.

[Kintamayama 47,311]

1 hour ago, Burajirotono said:

Lots of money in the sport, lots of hierachic disputes, changing of guards comming...

Money? Peanuts compared to any other sport, even in Japan, no.. Honor? Yes. Hierarchic disputes? Sure. Money? Not so much.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 47,311]

Shikimori Inosuke will be dealt with on the January 13th special rijikai convention. Possible punishments- demotion, suspension. Who will replace him? Probably Shikimori Kandayuu, the next in line. I think Kimura Kounosuke should be immediately promoted over all the others. Today.

[orandashoho 720]

15 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I think Kimura Kounosuke should be immediately promoted over all the others. Today.

Why?

[RaeucherLax 293]

11 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

Why?

He´s the "get yer effin' hands down" gyoji

[Kintamayama 47,311]

4 hours ago, orandashoho said:

Why?

Because in all parameters, he is the perfect gyoji in my mind. The way he kneels down to see what's  going on, the way he wears his hat. The respect and command he seems to have from the rikishi. Kounosuke!!

[kedevash 44]

The problem is that Shikimori Inosuke is still 58. So there is 7 more years for him at the top of the Gyoji crew. This is a long time for a "trouble maker gyoji" to deal with. The next in line Kandayu is also 58.
 

[Yamanashi 4,085]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Because in all parameters, he is the perfect gyoji in my mind. The way he kneels down to see what's  going on, the way he wears his hat. The respect and command he seems to have from the rikishi. Kounosuke!!

From Kounosuke's application letter (a la Gilbert and Sullivan):

"I am the very model of a Shikimori Inosuke,

I know the inner workings of the YDC and NSK,

As gyoji I’m just glorious, from tachiais to dohryos,

For I’m the very model of a Shikimori Inosuke."

[Mea culpa, I've been spending too much time on the haiku thread, and I can't stop!]

[yorikiried by fate 2,038]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Because in all parameters, he is the perfect gyoji in my mind. The way he kneels down to see what's  going on, the way he wears his hat. The respect and command he seems to have from the rikishi. Kounosuke!!

Not to forget: He is THE VOICE!

 

(and he was always wearing pink with dignity...)

Edited January 10, 2018 by yorikiried by fate

[Kintamayama 47,311]

1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Not to forget: He is THE VOICE!

 

(and he was always wearing pink with dignity...)

EXACTLY!! And his kneeling..perfect.