Shikimori Inosuke sexual harassment and drink talk..

[Akinomaki 41,844]

Asashosakari already mentioned it - he's a teenager - a minor.

Accidentally, Miyagino-beya's Shikimori Seisuke is 17.

Much more interesting would be the identity of the makuuchi gyoji who reported it to the NSK, a leading figure in the gyoji-kai, and how he learned of it o

news page with video (youtube-dl gets the news24 videos)

o

Edited January 6, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Amamaniac 2,092]

There were plenty of witnesses around when Harumafuji went ballistic on Takanoiwa.  That nobody was around to witness the sexual harassment セクハラ makes this a he said, he said situation.  Inosuke should have flat out denied the whole thing.

But having read the details outlined in the article link in the "earlier post elsewhere", the situation appears to me to be even more sordid.  What is a 58 year-old man doing having a private dinner at a hotel with a minor?  And what was the minor thinking when he accepted the invitation to a private dinner?  And do we know if alcohol was served to the "under-20" gyoji?  That in and of itself would be a criminal act, although perhaps not so serious in Japan where they serve sake to 7-5-3 (year old) celebrants at shrines.

And as for the information missing from the summary, the セクハラ occurred when Inosuke was sending the younger gyoji back to his stable.  Furthermore, it was not one kiss, but several kisses.

The identity of the "victim" should of course be protected, although the Japanese article did leave some clues as to his identity.  The relevance would be whether this scandal was another attempt to shake things up within the sumo world through intra-beya rivalries.  It is also relevant if there is a similar case in the future involving the same younger gyoji.

[Akinomaki 41,844]

2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

What is a 58 year-old man doing having a private dinner at a hotel with a minor?

A tate-gyoji has tsukebito, might be a younger gyoji

[Amamaniac 2,092]

8 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

A tate-gyoji has tsukebito, might be a younger gyoji

Miyagino-beya's Shikimori Seisuke per chance?  Any chance that the current Shikimori Seisuke is the 10th generation?  If so, we have our victim and can rule out conspiracy.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Amamaniac

[Asashosakari 20,274]

23 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

But having read the details outlined in the article link in the "earlier post elsewhere", the situation appears to me to be even more sordid. (snip)

Only in the egregious misreading you've done to come up with that post. Seriously, you've got pretty much everything wrong. Just stop before you're spreading even more misinformation.

[Akinomaki 41,844]

45 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Miyagino-beya's Shikimori Seisuke per chance?  Any chance that the current Shikimori Seisuke is the 10th generation?  If so, we have our victim and can rule out conspiracy.

10dai is not 10th generation here but a teenager

[Asashosakari 20,274]

In any case, Herouth's overview at the Tachiai blog provides a coherent summary of the various bits and pieces of the story: link

[Kuroyama 715]

12 hours ago, Arn said:

I would imagine he is at the center of a pretty bad drinking culture, but still hard to understand how a man of his age and his standing allows himself to get blackout-drunk like that.

This is something I don't get. I have been very, very drunk at times. When I was younger, I'd drink an entire bottle of wine at a time. When I worked at the Ren Faire, our after hours get-togethers were something to behold. We'd have "wine tastings" where everyone would bring 2 or 3 bottles -- they'd all be gone by the time we staggered off to our sleeping bags. And then there were the single malt tastings -- we wouldn't quite finish off the bottles, but lot of Scotch went past our tonsils.

Never once have I been so drunk that I had no memory of what I did.

How does a man in late 50s have so little self-control, so much less than a young guy in his 20s, that his drinking is that crazy? I'm tempted to think that he wasn't blackout drunk at all, but is using it as an excuse allowing him to issue a semi-denial.

And I have to wonder, never having had the experience myself: Is that really a thing anyway?

Edited January 6, 2018 by Kuroyama

[Kintamayama 47,310]

9 minutes ago, Kuroyama said:

And I have to wonder, never having had the experience myself: Is that really a thing anyway?

Most definitely and assuredly. And quite common. Wine-drunk, whisky drunk, vodka drunk, and sake drunk are not the same, in my experience . I don't drink at all, but my friends do, so I've seen it all.

[Benevolance 2,534]

The blackout thing *is* a thing. And it's not so much that you forget what happens, but that your brain actually stops recording, so you form no memories during that time.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,291]

I have, one time. It was in Japan at a after work thing.

The drinking in Japan is intense. It isn't that its a lot, but it is in a short time period with very little food. You start drinking before any food arrives, you never really get a main entree at these drinking parties. Plates and plates of food are ordered but there are a lot of people so you only get a bite here and there as they are passed and shared. Everyone orders drinks for everyone else, and the ABV of the drinks climb and climb til shochuu comes out. You go to the bathroom for a second and come back and there's a menagerie of a few glasses at your spot. You get semi-drunk so fast you reach the point where you're no longer refusing anything and by then its all over.

Whether or not this is actually the case here, who knows. 

[Amamaniac 2,092]

6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Only in the egregious misreading you've done to come up with that post. Seriously, you've got pretty much everything wrong.

I am willing to accept that I am wrong ("egregious"ly so) but I would hope that you could point out where or how exactly I have misread the following news account:

冬の巡業を行っていた沖縄県内のホテルで夜の食事中に酒に酔い、部屋まで送った１０代の若手行司の男性に対して数回キスをしたほか、手で胸に触れるセクハラ行為をしていたということです。

In hindsight, I will admit that I misinterpreted heya as "stable" rather than "(hotel) room", an honest mistake.  

Edited January 7, 2018 by Amamaniac

[Amamaniac 2,092]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

10dai is not 10th generation here but a teenager

While I am not versant in gyoji naming or titles, it was my impression that just like oyakatas, there are multiple incarnations of the same name/title (i.e., different people who have assumed the name/title).  So a gyoji name/title is recycled and in this particular case, the victim of the sexual harassment was the 10th person/generation to hold one of the gyoji names/titles, just as Shikimori Inosuke is the 40th person/generation to hold that name/title.  I chose the English word "generation" to translate the term 代, but clearly you feel that that is incorrect.  You have not, however, provided a better translation.  The use of "generation" does not deny the fact that the current holder of the gyoji name/title is a teenager.  Kindly tell me what the real case is regarding gyoji names.

In my efforts to determine if Shikimori Seisuke is the 10th dai, I came across a Japanese article which delves into the possible identity of the victim of the harassment by Inosuke.

http://koutom.com/2018/01/06/tre-526/

Edited January 6, 2018 by Amamaniac

[RabidJohn 2,071]

1 hour ago, Kuroyama said:

Never once have I been so drunk that I had no memory of what I did.

I've gotten myself exceedingly drunk on just about everything it's possible to get drunk on. I once got reeling drunk in less than an hour, but I've also spent all night (literally, dusk to dawn) getting drunk, and I too have never had no memory of what I did.

Ah, but how would I know?

I still drink, but I haven't got drunk since I was about 35 when it started to take 4-5 days to recover. If Shikimori Inosuke is still getting rat-arsed at 58, he must have a masochistic streak...

[yorikiried by fate 2,038]

The essence of my (mid-sized) life experience concerning drinking is -- if I may bother you -- "Not drinking helps getting drunk when you do."

Nowadays, I get sleepy after two bottles of beer, therefore never reach the shore of Awkward Isle and all is well.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,291]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

I am willing to accept that I am wrong ("egregious"ly so) but I would hope that you could point out where or how exactly I have misread the following news account:

冬の巡業を行っていた沖縄県内のホテルで夜の食事中に酒に酔い、部屋まで送った１０代の若手行司の男性に対して数回キスをしたほか、手で胸に触れるセクハラ行為をしていたということです。

In hindsight, I will admit that I misinterpreted heya as "stable" rather than "(hotel) room".  

冬の巡業を行っていた沖縄県内のホテルで

At the Okinawa-prefecture hotel the winter jungyo went to

夜の食事中に酒に酔い、

(Shikimori) was drunk from alcohol during dinner And Then ->

部屋まで送った The escorter and see offer to (Shikimori's) room１０代の若手行司の男性に対して  teenage young male gyoji was subject to

送った in this case means to escort and see off. Like you use it when you drop someone off at their house by car or whatever

Definitely 10代 means teenager because it is immediately followed up by 若手 which is young person. 

It is very clear in this sentence that Shikimori is in a bad way because nobody in a clear mind would need help to go from the hotel restaurant to their room.

数回キスをしたほか、手で胸に触れるセクハラ行為をしていたということです。

several kisses and also, his pec was felt up by (Shikimori's) hand which encompasses the sexual harassment that occurred, it is said (by somebody).

胸 is not like English and is unisex, can mean pec/breast.

(In natural English I would translate this a lot differently but I wanted it to be clear what each parts means)

 

There was no private dinner in the hotel room, rather the dinner happened in the hotel restaurant. This sentence never says that the young gyoji ever entered the hotel room of Shikimori.

[Amamaniac 2,092]

14 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

There was no private dinner in the hotel room, rather the dinner happened in the hotel restaurant. This sentence never says that the young gyoji ever entered the hotel room of Shikimori.

For the record, I never said that they dined in a hotel room, but rather that they had dinner together privately (without any other guests at the table) in the hotel.  Nor did I claim that the young gyoji entered Shikimori's room ...

[Kuroyama 715]

8 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I have, one time. It was in Japan at a after work thing.

On reflection, the drunkest I've ever been was a relatively recent after work thing too, but in California. My ex-boss (fired for reasons, and since the settlement required he not talk about it I still don't know all the details, but he's a cool guy) came to town for a visit, and a few of us joined him at a local brewpub. He decided it was a good idea to start drinking Fireball shots. I loathe Fireball, but I drank them anyway. How many? No idea, not because I blacked out but because I simply lost count.

That was the closest I've ever come to throwing up from drinking too. Still didn't black out though.

[Akinomaki 41,844]

9 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

The use of "generation" does not deny the fact that the current holder of the gyoji name/title is a teenager.  Kindly tell me what the real case is regarding gyoji names

6 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Definitely 10代 means teenager because it is immediately followed up by 若手 which is young person. 

The case regarding gyoji (or oyakata, kabuki, etc.) names is that there ARE names given to have it mean nth generation - there was none here, so it is just the 10-generation.

Context is everything in Japanese - e.g. I at first got the gyoji-kai kantoku wrong

14 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Much more interesting would be the identity of the makuuchi gyoji who reported it to the NSK, a leading figure in the gyoji-kai, and how he learned of it o

行司会監督の幕内行司から報告を受け

I first thought he was the kantoku of the gyoji-kai, but then realized it was the use of kantoku as simply a leading figure in some organization, meaning that he simply belongs to that group and not indicating his precise position in it.

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Akinomaki

[dada78641 884]

10 hours ago, Kuroyama said:

Never once have I been so drunk that I had no memory of what I did.

I mean, it happens, but in fairness I should say that it has only happened once to me. For me, it never happened a second time because I'm very well aware of my own limits and I'd have to drink far past them to reach that stage. It takes a whole other level of irresponsible drinking to get to that point. At least, in my case. I'm not sure if it's the same for other people.

But that said, I'm always extremely skeptical when someone says "I had too much to drink, so I don't remember."

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

It might be useful to keep in mind that drunkenness is has no social stigma here, nor does being an alcoholic. "I was drunk and don't remember" is used in Japan as a sort of "my bad, but take it easy on me" excuse that is accepted by pretty much everyone. It's not at all certain that Inosuke was so drunk that he is unable to remember was he is alleged to have done. He may or may not. But he is following the time honored and socially acceptable way of explaining his behavior in this culture, whether he was just a little bit tipsy all the way to if he was blind drunk and barely able to walk.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Otokonoyama

[Kintamayama 47,310]

There are people who need only two beers or a few cups of sake to totally lose it. They "can't hold their liquor" and don't have to drink large quantities.  Also, from my experience with drinking with Japanese businessmen, it's usually one of the two- they either become belligerent and loud, or turn into twelve year old girls, giggling and stuff. And the transition is amazingly quick. It's a totally different kind of drunk.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Benihana 1,972]

Genetics. Many chinese/japanese/korean people suffer from a genetic defect that negatively affects the metabolization of alcohol. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldehyde_dehydrogenase#Pathology_(aldehyde_dehydrogenase_deficiency)

 

Apparently this comes from older ages, when clean water was sparse. The asians made themselves a cup of tea, killing all bacteria while cooking the water. Europeans had no tea, so they resorted to desinfection with alcohol. Absolutely everyone (including children) drank thinned beer or wine, so our genes developed in a different direction.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Benihana

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Yes, the both of you are quite correct. This varies by individual and by region. In general terms, locals from the areas around the midpoint of Japan are less tolerant of alcohol on a physiological level, and those from the extremes north and south are more so.  Of course I know people from Mie Prefecture, for example, who can drink me under the table, and Okinawans who fade fast. But speaking more generally, the locals here tend to be strong, and those closer to the center of the country not so much. None of which sheds much light on the Inosuke Incident.

[Churaumi 753]

Japanese also have a tendency to act drunker than they are. Drinking gives them cover to let go and be themselves for a while. Saw that a lot; people would be loud and emotional, and when it was time to go they all got up and seemed just fine, no wobbles or anything and back to normal socially. 

Not to say I didn’t also see lots of people just get so trashed they did things like stand in the middle of the road in front of the snack bar, pants around ankles, just peeing with all their might down the center line of the road.