Takanohana-devil's advocate

[Kintamayama 40,609]

32 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

It has it if wilfully misinterpreted in the way Taka does. When you look at the announcement of Ikenobo (at about 13m, may differ, because those videos won't stay long) https://www.google.de/search?q=グッディ!+2018年2月9日&tbm=vid

you see that she only just got told that Taka's office had acknowledged the dismissal - to report this, rather than to say " 'hai' to iu koto" - etc.

 

Again, this is semantics. Takanohana is alive and well, and is explaining his side of the story, (quite eloquently and in detail I might add) and when he says he was blatantly misquoted and explains why, I choose to believe him, and you don't - it's as simple as that. We can go on discussing this till the end of time, it won't bring about any different result.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 40,609]

Takanohana talks more on the incident itself: "Takanoiwa supposedly said 'I beat a Yokozuna in January - from now on our time has come'. In the first meeting on the day of the attack, Hakuhou admonished Takanoiwa in Mongolian. 'Looks like you think you are a big shot..I hear you said it's now your time from now on..' At the second meeting that day, he continued to admonish Takanoiwa. Was it really necessary to keep on badgering him about this??  It's been acknowledged that this had nothing to do with the assault. Nothing at all. Unrelated, yes? The question is, what really brought about the assault?" It was said in the Crisis Committee's final report that the next day, Takanoiwa apologized to Harumafuji and shook his hand, causing Harumafuji to think everything was settled between them. "You do understand that this never happened, right? Why would he suffer an injury and apologize for it? What kind of an apology is that and for what? There is a rank system in sumo, and the person higher up the ladder hit the person who is lower. It hurts when you get hit. This was no ordinary injury and it was not an ordinary act of violence!!" said a visibly enraged Takanohana.

[Kintamayama 40,609]

The Kyokai is totally enraged at Takanohana and what he said during the TV interview, and are now firing back. "Last year on November 30th, December 20th and December 28th, we declared things, and they are the truth. Anything said to the contrary is not in line with the truth," said a document issued by the Kyokai. "We are repeating the fact that all the Crisis Committee findings are the truth. One Oyakata is not accepting this fact, but the Kyokai led a serious investigation and consequently the resulting findings were announced," said deputy PR man Shibatayama Oyakata.

[Rocks 1,725]

I'm beginning to understand why he got only 2 votes.

[WAKATAKE 2,357]

What is the likelihood that those who followed him into the Takanohana Ichimon may start rethinking their decisions soon?

[Kintamayama 40,609]

2 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

What is the likelihood that those who followed him into the Takanohana Ichimon may start rethinking their decisions soon?

Judging by the election results, it’s already started. Or has it?

[rhyen 1,584]

How quickly does it take for a TV station to put together such a show?

[WAKATAKE 2,357]

8 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Judging by the election results, it’s already started. Or has it?

Well I am wondering if any of them might start thinking about changing ichimon. But that might not even be plausible.

[Benihana 1,718]

Someone should do a short summary every 2 or 3 three pages. Too much input from too many sources + shitloads (sorry, but that's the only viable description) of sarcasm. I completely lost track whom to like/dislike at the moment.

[Sokkenaiyama 64]

It's simple, like Takanohana for his results as a rikishi and for his idea(l)s as an oyakata and a member of the NSK - not for the way he implements them.

[serge_gva 52]

48 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Someone should do a short summary every 2 or 3 three pages. Too much input from too many sources + shitloads (sorry, but that's the only viable description) of sarcasm. I completely lost track whom to like/dislike at the moment.

Same here. In particular, I do not understand exactly which "copyrighted documents" Asahi TV broadcasted. 
About Takanohana's version of the scandal,  does he claim that the phone / sms story never existed? If yes, then what exactly started the beating?

 

 

[Tsuchinoninjin 987]

1 hour ago, Benihana said:

Someone should do a short summary every 2 or 3 three pages. Too much input from too many sources + shitloads (sorry, but that's the only viable description) of sarcasm. I completely lost track whom to like/dislike at the moment.

I'm not sure where you are seeing the sarcasm. Posts that are not clearly personal opinions are fair translations of newspaper articles as they pop up. The weirdness of them is just standard Japanese journalistic style which can be quite different to Western styles (for example, confirming word for word direct quotes or attributing them can be totally ignored in Japan most of the time)

[Kintamayama 40,609]

2 hours ago, serge_gva said:

Same here. In particular, I do not understand exactly which "copyrighted documents" Asahi TV broadcasted. 

In every televised sport, even in America, you get the "images may no be rebroadcast without the permission of XX" message. The rikishi images/videos whatever belong to the Kyokai. You can't use them without the Kyokai's permission. It's called copyright.

Now, THAT'S irony, coming from me.

Quote

About Takanohana's version of the scandal,  does he claim that the phone / sms story never existed? If yes, then what exactly started the beating?

 

Yes he does, and he isn't telling us what.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 40,609]

3 hours ago, Sokkenaiyama said:

It's simple, like Takanohana for his results as a rikishi and for his idea(l)s as an oyakata and a member of the NSK - not for the way he implements them.

That sums it up very well, sir. Very well.

[serge_gva 52]

On 12/02/2018 at 22:52, Kintamayama said:

In every televised sport, even in America, you get the "images may no be rebroadcast without the permission of XX" message. The rikishi images/videos whatever belong to the Kyokai. You can't use them without the Kyokai's permission. It's called copyright.

Aren't that kind of images covered by the Right to quote?

Edited February 15, 2018 by serge_gva

[Andreas21 168]

First, let me thank everybody for the civilized discussion in a highly controversial and emotional subject. I greatly appreciate that!

I'm sorry I can't provide any additional facts. I depend on second hand information, I just can offer some thoughts.

My personal opinion on the subject of violence off the Dohyo in Sumo is simple - I don't like it. It may be an integral part of the education to form fighting spirit - in this respect I'm ambivalent. This said, I would be glad if there would be an ambassador for respectful non-violent treatment of Rikishi in Ozumo.

But I struggle to see in Takanohana this ambassador. Many of his actions are simply not compatible with this ideal. One notable exception is reporting Harumafuji's assault to the police. This would have been a great opportunity to stand up for an ideal. If only it would have been backed up by offensively proclaiming "now is the time" and further actions.

There is sort of a consensus among some forum members that he follows these ideals but the implementation is clumsy. Although I see it as a valid hypothesis, there is also a simple alternate hypothesis: Takanohana has the aim to gain power, for instance finally becoming Rijicho, and does not have much of an ideal. Anything utilizing this aim is good enough. This time, the role as violence whistleblower is good enough. From this perspective, his actions make more sense.

Obviously, only a fraction of actual events is known. Behind-the-door conversation, in-heya events are hidden but for insiders. Some of the published track of events may be wrong, public statements may be lies, and so on. But a fraction of it is open and agreed upon by most of the involved parties - this is what I trust. That the assault has taken place, that Takanoiwa took part in Jungyo but soon thereafter was mostly hidden, inconsistent health certificates, inconclusive hospitalization of Takanoiwa, Takanohana refused to cooperate, presented certificates at unusual dates, Takas TV interview, the statements of Kyokai officials and Rikishi. From this information alone, Taka's dedication to the ideal of non-violent Rikishi "education" is already highly questionable.

The relevant question is: qui bono? What is actually reached is: Harumafuji is sacked, Takanoiwas carreer highly questioned, Isegehama, Hakuho and Kakuryo weakened in salary and position, Hakkaku politically weakened, other board members mocked upon, more negativity in the public opinion on Ozumo - and also Takanohana himself weakened, more isolated among oyataka but strengthened in public opinion.

From the side of the unknown, two suspicions are still alive and well: 1. a rather healthy Takanoiwa is kept intentionally under arrest for political impact, and 2. Takanoiwa beaten up to blow up the Harumafuji assault.

 

 

[Kintamayama 40,609]

5 hours ago, serge_gva said:

Aren't that kind of images covered by the Right to quote?

I doubt that would be considered a quote. If that were the case a few of our friends would still be uploading.

[Fukurou 534]

10 hours ago, serge_gva said:

Aren't that kind of images covered by the Right to quote?

Nope. Using Major League Baseball in the US as an example, they hold copyright over everything related to the game broadcasts (as Kintamayama wrote earlier). You can't do anything with their material without their permission. If you go to a game and shoot your own video I think you're ok it's for personal use, otherwise things can get sticky. HERE is a link to MLB's rules on the subject. I'm guessing, since Asahi got caught forging permissions last month, that the NSK holds similar rights.

[serge_gva 52]

18 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I doubt that would be considered a quote. If that were the case a few of our friends would still be uploading.

Thank you for your answer. I didn't watch these videos, I maybe misunderstood the whole thing. I thought they were excerpts used to illustrate a news about the Harumafuji / Takanoiwa's case.
If these excerpts were whole bouts not closely related to the case, use them is indeed debatable.

12 hours ago, Fukurou said:

Nope. Using Major League Baseball in the US as an example, they hold copyright over everything related to the game broadcasts (as Kintamayama wrote earlier). You can't do anything with their material without their permission. If you go to a game and shoot your own video I think you're ok it's for personal use, otherwise things can get sticky. HERE is a link to MLB's rules on the subject. I'm guessing, since Asahi got caught forging permissions last month, that the NSK holds similar rights.

 

This is very surprising. You are saying that a news channel can't broadcast even seconds of a Baseball game?
It's not the same in Europe. No matter how expensive are the rights (Soccer World Cup for example), any media can show excerpts,  because it's in the public interest.
A media can publish a lot of images if public interest is involved, no matter copyright or even more serious rights  (thank God for democratic preservation!).

Edited February 16, 2018 by serge_gva

[Kintamayama 40,609]

17 minutes ago, serge_gva said:

This is very surprising. You are saying that a news channel can't broadcast even seconds of a Baseball game?
It's not the same in Europe. No matter how expensive are the rights (Soccer World Cup for example), any media can show excerpts,  because it's in the public interest.
A media can publish a lot of images if public interest is involved, no matter copyright or even more serious rights  (thank God for democratic preservation!).

Every news channel that broadcasts even a few seconds of a sporting event without having the rights, always pays for it or at least gets express written permission. There is no such thing as showing even a few seconds without permission from the holder of the rights, even in Europe. Many times you will see interviews and stuff from an important match, but nothing from the match itself. That's because they didn't get permission/refused to pay. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Kintamayama

[serge_gva 52]

51 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Every news channel that broadcasts even a few seconds of a sporting event without having the rights, always pays for it or at least gets express written permission. There is no such thing as showing even a few seconds without permission from the holder of the rights, even in Europe. Many times you will see interviews and stuff from an important match, but nothing from the match itself. That's because they didn't get permission/refused to pay. 

I think you are wrong. In France, for example, there is this law. Quick translation:

The seller or the purchaser of these rights (sport event) can not oppose the broadcast by other services of communication to the public of short excerpts taken free of charge and freely chosen by the non-owner of the rights.  These excerpts are broadcast free of charge during news programs.

In other words: during 2020 Tokyo Olympics, french TVs will be allowed to broadcast excerpts of Sumo bouts in their news programs, if they respect several conditions (length of extracts, quote from the source, etc.), whether the NSK and the OG Rights Holder agree or disagree. But Sumo is an interesting and particular case, because bouts are very short. I wonder what will be consider as an excerpt...
There is more or less the same law in Switzerland, an probably in most EU countries (but I'm not sure of this last point). I thought US "Fair use" would allow the same thing, but apparently I'm wrong.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by serge_gva

[Kintamayama 40,609]

13 minutes ago, serge_gva said:

I think you are wrong. In France, for example, there is this law. Quick translation:

The seller or the purchaser of these rights (sport event) can not oppose the broadcast by other services of communication to the public of short excerpts taken free of charge and freely chosen by the non-owner of the rights.  These excerpts are broadcast free of charge during news programs.

In other words: during 2020 Tokyo Olympics, french TVs will be allowed to broadcast excerpts of Sumo bouts in their news programs, if they respect several conditions (length of extracts, quote from the source, etc.), whether the NSK and the OG Rights Holder agree or disagree. But Sumo is an interesting an particular case, because bouts are very short. I wonder what will be consider as an excerpt...
There is more or less the same law in Switzerland, an probably in most EU countries (but I'm not sure of this last point). I thought US "Fair use" would allow the same thing, but apparently I'm wrong.

 

Well, part of my real life job is linked to this, and I would be quite surprised to find out that this includes videos of actual  matches that can be re-broadcast freely. How long is a free excerpt? As no limit seems to be attached, this is very strange indeed.

[serge_gva 52]

48 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Well, part of my real life job is linked to this, and I would be quite surprised to find out that this includes videos of actual  matches that can be re-broadcast freely. How long is a free excerpt? As no limit seems to be attached, this is very strange indeed.

There are several rules, and the lenght of excerpts is indeed limited. You can find them here or here (these apply in France only). EDIT: I found a rather good summary in english.

This particular french regulation comes from this EU regulation (see point 55). And of course, said regulation comes from ECHR, chapter 10 (Freedom to receive information), if we assume that sport is a matter of public interest (which is not disputed for major sports).

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by serge_gva

[Fukurou 534]

7 hours ago, serge_gva said:

Thank you for your answer. I didn't watch these videos, I maybe misunderstood the whole thing. I thought they were excerpts used to illustrate a news about the Harumafuji / Takanoiwa's case.
If these excerpts were whole bouts not closely related to the case, use them is indeed debatable.

 

This is very surprising. You are saying that a news channel can't broadcast even seconds of a Baseball game?

The link I provided discusses this. News programs will show short highlight segments of a game, but that's all, and only after the game is over. MLB has contracts with various networks to broadcast games (all major sports in the US do). For example, in recent years (and keeping with MLB) the playoffs have been broadcast by Fox network under their contract with MLB. Other media outlets, such as and including ESPN (all sports), have to wait a specified amount of time (varies) after the game is over to broadcast highlights. It's very common in American Football for the post-game show on one network to have to wait for the game broadcast on another network to end before the post-game show can show highlights of that game. This, even though both networks would have broadcast contracts with the NFL - but those contracts restrict them to broadcasting only certain games/teams. They get treated like "everyone else" when it comes footage from any other game/team. This because NFL is "protecting" their "broadcast partners" from each other. The post-game show people will often even say something like "Coming up, we'll talk about what happened in Patriots vs Giants as soon as that game is over".   The highlights and time delays is to make sure the owner (MLB, etc) and the contracted broadcaster have advantage over everyone else.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Fukurou

[rhyen 1,584]

I am sure that Kintamayama will devour this slavishly.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/貴の乱-日馬富士暴行事件の真相と日本相撲協会の「権力闘争」-鵜飼-克郎/dp/4800281024/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1518806857&sr=1-2&keywords=相撲

Edited February 17, 2018 by rhyen