Kintamayama

Takanohana-devil's advocate

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Kintamayama    22,813

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, reading your thoughts and having my own, and at this point, I'm switching sides, fashion sense notwithstanding. I think, as an Oyakata, Takanohana did the right thing every step of the way. An Oyakata has the obligation, first and foremost, to be a father figure to his deshi and as such,  protect them from any dangers etc.. The minute he found out the extent of the assault, he did the right thing as a human being-he went to the police and filed a complaint. It was the wrong thing to do in the eyes of people inside the sumo world, since "it's the way of sumo etc.. etc.." but in any other universe, it was the right thing to do. Ever since he became an Oyakata, he has said time and again that he wants to change things in sumo. He caused a rebellion which resulted in his establishing an ichimon under the noses of the other Oyakata, bringing with him 4 other heyas. Going to the police and not leaving "the boys to sort it out among themselves" is exactly in line with his way of thinking. The double health certificates have not been explained yet, and the non-certificate for the jungyo is an enigma, but it seems to me he is telling everyone else that he will protect his guys regardless of what rules he has to break in the process, and that this time,  as he sees it, the assault was of a grave nature that cannot be labeled as "boys will be boys" any longer, and he is willing to face the consequences for "blowing the whistle". Of course, the coming election and the political bantering involved surely is playing a role in what transpired, but bottom line, strange as he may seem or actually be, I think he did the right thing. There is a reason for his not being punished today. The Kyokai has all the facts. This "we still haven't finished our own investigation" is total bull to buy time. Takanoiwa was interviewed, everyone knows what happened, the Kyokai has clearly established that Takanoiwa is the victim and even given him unprecedented leeway concerning a possible demotion if he misses the next basho. Is it really important to know the extent of his injury? Maybe the emotional side is a factor as well?  We still don't have the full picture regarding his injuries and a lot of shady stuff seems to be going on, but I'm on Takanohana's side here.  Simply put, the Kyokai has no case against him. The only thing I can see  as a reason for some punishment is the fact that he was the jungyo chief  and this happened during his watch. Still, he adamantly says he knew nothing until he found out, and he did what he did when he found out. Well..

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Akinomaki    18,289

Don't forget that he's punishing Takanoiwa and not protecting him - if the doctors saw no hindrance to enter the Kyushu basho and apparently he had intended to do it as well, it is only Taka who prevented him from doing that and having him drop to juryo for now.

I repeat my stance: Takanoiwa is the only victim here, but Harumafuji is not the main one to have traumatized him.

An oyakata who promises to protect his deshi from all the gods in the world will surely demand absolute obedience. And most likely he didn't mention in his blog what happens to the naughty boy who won't obey the mighty oyakata.

 

Edited by Akinomaki
all references I made, point to the infinite abyss of the forum database, where thread 1 went to
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Kintamayama    22,813
1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Don't forget that he's punishing Takanoiwa and not protecting him - if the doctors saw no hindrance to enter the Kyushu basho and apparently he had intended to do it as well, it is only Taka who prevented him from doing that and having him drop to juryo for now.

I repeat my stance: Takanoiwa is the only victim here, but Harumafuji is not the main one to have traumatized him.

An oyakata who promises to protect his deshi from all the gods in the world will surely demand absolute obedience. And most likely he didn't mention in his blog what happens to the naughty boy who won't obey the mighty oyakata.

 

Since we both don't know the extent of the injury, you don't know that. The fact that the doctors saw no hindrance is irrelevant since doctors have not seen him for a while, and both of us have no idea what shape he is in now.  As for absolute obedience, all Oyakata demand absolute obedience. The whole structure of sumo depends on absolute obedience. Sometimes, it is not needed-it surely isn't a one way street-each rikishi and each Oyakata has his own quirks. But as a whole, I stand by what I wrote. If Takanoiwa is so traumatized by Takanohana, he can quit, or are you saying he is a hostage now? Each oyakata has his own system, but don't believe for a second that every heya does not have rigid rules when nobody is watching. 

Edited by Kintamayama
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dada78641    342

I saw that you sent this on your mailing list too, Kinta. I'm curious what the readers think who don't frequent Sumo Forums.

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Churaumi    104

I think he did everything right as far as the cops go, but his dealings with the kyokai have been bad. He wants to be an agent of change but shot himself in the foot. 

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orandashoho    531
27 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

We still don't have the full picture regarding his injuries and a lot of shady stuff seems to be going on, but I'm on Takanohana's side here.  Simply put, the Kyokai has no case against him. The only thing I can see  as a reason for some punishment is the fact that he was the jungyo chief  and this happened during his watch. Still, he adamantly says he knew nothing until he found out, and he did what he did when he found out. Well..

Then what's the sense in refusing to cooperate with the NSK investigation? Or not publishing a recent health certificate for Takanoiwa's absence at the jungyo, or Takanoiwa's alledged kyujo next basho? Is this just greed to get the best settlement out of Harumafuji for injuries not published yet, or future ill effects of these injuries? (How is that progressing, BTW?)

 

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Kintamayama    22,813
Just now, orandashoho said:

Then what's the sense in refusing to cooperate with the NSK investigation? Or not publishing a recent health certificate for Takanoiwa's absence at the jungyo, or Takanoiwa's alledged kyujo next basho? Is this just greed to get the best settlement out of Harumafuji for injuries not published yet, or future ill effects of these injuries? (How is that progressing, BTW?)

 

I can't answer on his behalf, but I can attempt to. He thinks that the NSK investigation is irrelevant, as the more relevant issues such as violence as a norm in sumo should be addressed. Or, alternatively, he thinks he is above answering to a Kyokai that seemingly has more regard for protocol than for the well being of its rikishi. Arrogant? Sure. Right? You betcha.

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Kintamayama    22,813
11 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

his dealings with the kyokai have been bad. He wants to be an agent of change but shot himself in the foot. 

We'll see about that very shortly.. The fact is, the Kyokai can't bring itself to punish him, for whatever reason. Heck. they punished their number one asset and the other Yokozuna just for being in the room and Isegahama just for being Harumafuji's Oyakata. None of these guys actually DID anything wrong. They were punished for what they DIDN'T do.. Takanohana did EVERYTHING wrong in their book, refusing to cooperate and refusing to produce a health certificate for Takanoiwa's jungyo absence, yet everyone gets punished and he doesn't?? Why?

Edited by Kintamayama

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Kintamayama    22,813
15 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

I saw that you sent this on your mailing list too, Kinta. I'm curious what the readers think who don't frequent Sumo Forums.

That is exactly the reason I sent it..

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Tochinofuji    50
1 minute ago, Kintamayama said:

That is exactly the reason I sent it..

Having not heard of this mailing list before, where might one subscribe to it? Assuming it's open to further subscribers that is. 

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dada78641    342

I agree with you in principle about Takanohana, but the problem is that there was just no way this was ever going to end with anything other than Harumafuji's forcible retirement. And I think that's too heavy a sentence for what he did. If Federer did something like this, it would be met with a similar outcry, but he wouldn't have to give up his career and livelihood over it. The "old boys network" that Takanohana seeks to fight doesn't just claim Takanoiwa as its victim but Harumafuji as well. He absolutely knew that, which means he was OK with ending Harumafuji's career over this. I think that's excessive.

If there was no such thing as a NSK micromanaging everything, I think he did the right thing.

Aside from that, I think it's pretty obvious he had no interest in making sure the media had the right story going into this. He can't be blamed for that completely, but the medical certificates indicate that we can't directly link Takanoiwa's immediate pre-basho kyuujou with Harumafuji's assault. The earliest certificate says he was fine. The one that says he wasn't came two weeks later. So now we have a story in the press that Harumafuji practically bashed Takanoiwa's brains out with a beer bottle, when that just can't be ascertained by the facts. If Takanohana was more open about these things from the start, the image created by the media could've been very different.

But again in principle I think you're right. Assault cases should be handled by the police. From what I've read of Takanohana's ideas about sumo, it sounds good to me. Make sumo more into a modern sport. 

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orandashoho    531
8 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:
10 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

That is exactly the reason I sent it..

Having not heard of this mailing list before, where might one subscribe to it? Assuming it's open to further subscribers that is. 

Do you really want to receive messages twice?

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Tochinofuji    50
1 minute ago, orandashoho said:

Do you really want to receive messages twice?

I've always considered myself slow on the uptake, so most things bear repeating where I'm involved. 

Plus, given Dada's and Kinta's posts above, I was hoping there might be some additional content not making its way onto the forum ;) 

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Kintamayama    22,813
10 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

Having not heard of this mailing list before, where might one subscribe to it? Assuming it's open to further subscribers that is. 

It is, but if you frequent this forum everything is cross-posted. If you want to get it directly to your mail, you can subscribe at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sumo-newsletter2

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Asashosakari    11,155
27 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

I think he did everything right as far as the cops go, but his dealings with the kyokai have been bad. He wants to be an agent of change but shot himself in the foot. 

That's pretty much my take as well. I think he let his dislike for "the system" cloud his judgement there - if he had played along with the basic formalities once the whole thing went public, he'd be in a better position now.

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Kintamayama    22,813
4 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

But again in principle I think you're right. Assault cases should be handled by the police. From what I've read of Takanohana's ideas about sumo, it sounds good to me. Make sumo more into a modern sport. 

I'm not sure I or Takanohana want to make sumo a more modern sport. I think the changes would be subtle while preserving the general character of the sumo as it is. I'd say reforms with how to deal with health issues, finding a way to let the rikishi with injuries to heal in a dignified manner, keeping violent actions out of sumo, allowing women to wrestle-that sort of thing.

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Tochinofuji    50
6 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

Do you really want to receive messages twice?

 

3 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

I've always considered myself slow on the uptake, so most things bear repeating where I'm involved. 

Plus, given Dada's and Kinta's posts above, I was hoping there might be some additional content not making its way onto the forum ;) 

2 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

It is, but if you frequent this forum everything is cross-posted. If you want to get it directly to your mail, you can subscribe at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sumo-newsletter2

Well, it appears my hope was ill-conceived!

Orandashoho by a pretty quick yorikiri I'd say. 

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Akinomaki    18,289
39 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Each oyakata has his own system, but don't believe for a second that every heya does not have rigid rules when nobody is watching.

One of the more sensible weekly tabloids, shukan bunshun is the first to at last point out that Taka is the weird one here http://lite-ra.com/2017/12/post-3668.html

I have to change my preferences - so far I had Mitsuru Yaku as a reasonable thinker and Mineko Nomachi as just boring

Brain washing to thoughts of the extreme right, turning into a cult - that new religion they have close connections with is a hint that the system in this heya is absolutely not like "every heya" https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/龍神総宮社

They mention reports in a minor tabloid (shincho) from 2012 about repeated violence against an 18y old deshi by Taka - not the one you would want to lead sumo to (where he wants)

Edited by Akinomaki
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Kintamayama    22,813
2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

That's pretty much my take as well. I think he let his dislike for "the system" cloud his judgement there - if he had played along with the basic formalities once the whole thing went public, he'd be in a better position now.

I agree. Yet, the fact that he was not punished when he was the person that gave the Kyokai the most reasons to be punished is making me wonder.

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kawika    76

like many things, the slant that the media takes, and ourselves take on the forum, has for me, painted Takanohana as the bad guy.  after reading 'golden balls' post here, i can easily see how he is the good guy and is keeping with his public commitment to his boys.

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Kintamayama    22,813
1 minute ago, Akinomaki said:

One of the more sensible weekly tabloids, shukan bunshun is the first to at last point out that Taka is the weird one here http://lite-ra.com/2017/12/post-3668.html

I have to change my preferences - so far I had Mitsuru Yaku as a reasonable thinker and Mineko Nomachi as just boring

Brain washing to thoughts of the extreme right, turning into a cult - that new religion they have close connections with is a hint that the system in this heya is absolutely not like "every heya" https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/龍神総宮社

They mention reports in a minor tabloid (shincho) from 2012 about repeated violence against young deshi by Taka - not the one you would want to lead sumo to

Gossip. Sensible weekly tabloid? Oxymoron.

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Asashosakari    11,155
2 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I agree. Yet, the fact that he was not punished when he was the person that gave the Kyokai the most reasons to be punished is making me wonder.

I'm being a bit cynical about that. I think Hakkaku just doesn't want to rock the boat too much to avoid putting his re-election in jeopardy. He's surely got the majority of oyakata in his corner, but the last thing he needs in the run-up to the election in six weeks would be wall-to-wall press coverage of Takanohana being martyred.

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Kintamayama    22,813
Just now, Asashosakari said:

I'm being a bit cynical about that. I think Hakkaku just doesn't want to rock the boat too much to avoid putting his re-election in jeopardy. He's surely got the majority of oyakata in his corner, but the last thing he needs in the run-up to the election in six weeks would be wall-to-wall press coverage of Takanohana being martyred.

If that is true, I wholeheartedly rest my case..

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Benihana    631

Remains the question why Takanohana didn't blow the whistle at a much earlier point? Why did he wait to step forward? I don't buy him being the Edward Snowden of sumo. He saw the opportunity to let the mongolians look bad - at least - and he grabbed it. What if Kisenosato had gone berzerk on Takanoiwa? I don't know...

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Dapeng    127
25 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Remains the question why Takanohana didn't blow the whistle at a much earlier point? Why did he wait to step forward? I don't buy him being the Edward Snowden of sumo. He saw the opportunity to let the mongolians look bad - at least - and he grabbed it. What if Kisenosato had gone berzerk on Takanoiwa? I don't know...

If there was a conspiracy against Mongolian rikishies, I think the actual target was Hakuho -- it's Hakuho whom Takanoiwa was impolite to, not Harumafuji who actually had been kind to Takanoiwa. 

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