Kintamayama

Harumafuji scandal thread- part 2

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Not at this stage. He has to receive a punishment, and it could be a severe one.

Won’t the court case and civil suit delay any punishment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rhyen said:

Won’t the court case and civil suit delay any punishment?

Why would it? That's entirely separate from what the NSK wishes to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually don't talk a lot in this forum. I read a lot but because i'm not so good in English i tend to read only.

But i have to share my thoughts about this case.

I think that the NSK has to evolve. And rather sooner than later before it becomes to be messier that it already is.

They have to evolve about how they deal with the rikishi. This guys are adults. They fight everyday in a though environement. And They barely have time for themelves in a normal situation (scandal free). The amount of public activities + hon-basho + jungyo is really huge. They are put on a lot of pressure. For them with the results and for the NSK with their general behaviour and image they reflect to the public.

The rules are getting even thougher after the scandal during the fuyu jungyo with curfew ect... For me they really have to lighten the load they put especially on the sekitori. The society evolves, and the sumo has to evolve to some degree too. I know this is sumo and this is Japan so it is all complicated but we arrive to the point that i think some scandals will emerge again. This guys are doing a violent sport that include quite a lot of violence so of course sometimes they are going wild outside the doyo. The pressure they are put on has to go out in some manner. The problem is that it was a Yokozuna was involve and a Oyokata reported the fact to the world.

When we saw what Hakuho did during the hon-basho. The matta scandal, the violent type of sumo he fights, the Yusho interview and the Banzai ( personnaly the last 3 i don't think there is a problem.). I think Hakuho is under so much pressure that even him can behave "badly". He is a Yokozuna the last 10 years. For a long time he was alone taking all the responsability of the rank. Even now with 3 others Yokozuna he has to do all by himself. One is going intai after this miss, and the two others are injured or doing badly. Once again it's up to him to do it all. He reached a point that maybe it too much to him to endure.

And what is doing the NSK. They sanctionned him for January and half of February. I don't understand them...

So for me they really have to be lighter on the rikishi. And i'm sure all will be going better. I think too that more shin-deshi will come to sumo.

I hope i was understandable...

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Crisis Committee is complaining  that they still haven't interviewed Takanohana yet, although he has already agreed to be interviewed. The committee is saying the deadline is December 26th. They want to dish out the punishment on the 28th, as we all remember, but they can't do it without interviewing him, they say. I think they can, but I don't have a casting vote.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

The Crisis Committee is complaining  that they still haven't interviewed Takanohana yet, although he has already agreed to be interviewed. The committee is saying the deadline is December 26th. They want to dish out the punishment on the 28th, as we all remember, but they can't do it without interviewing him, they say. I think they can, but I don't have a casting vote.

He allowed Takanoiwa to be interviewed the night before the committee meeting. He may do the same again, i.e., to accept the interview at  27 night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

The Crisis Committee is complaining  that they still haven't interviewed Takanohana yet, although he has already agreed to be interviewed. The committee is saying the deadline is December 26th. They want to dish out the punishment on the 28th, as we all remember, but they can't do it without interviewing him, they say. I think they can, but I don't have a casting vote.

Maybe he thinks if he rejects the interview, the kyokai will not be able to discipline him.

Edited by Dapeng

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Takanohana arrived at the offices today and answered some questions, said Kagamiyama Crisis Committee guy today.This allows for the special rijikai meeting to be held on the 28th to decide on an appropriate punishment for Takanohana. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Are you going to allow yourself to be investigated? Oyakata??" asked the journalists outside Takanohana beya today as he left for the questioning.. Takanohana remained silent, returning six hours later.. The session itself was held at a local hotel for two hours. As opposed to the cheerful Christmas lights at the hotel, the atmosphere was heavy with  the media showing up at all entrances. Kagamiyama Oyakata came out at around 4 PM local time, walking briskly.  "That's over and done with.." he said, adding he has no comments as to the contents of the discussion and returned to the Allied  Kyokai Headquarters. 

On his way to the meeting:

sum17122519090003-p1.jpg

Reverse angle, with "The Bag"

sum17122519090003-p2.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Well, Takanohana arrived at the offices today and answered some questions, said Kagamiyama Crisis Committee guy today.This allows for the special rijikai meeting to be held on the 28th to decide on an appropriate punishment for Takanohana. 

So he accepted the interview one day before the deadline (26). An old saying: you have to bend down your neck if you stand in a low-ceiling room.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just happened to catch the same story on TV by accident.

Nothing new to report aside from what Kinta said.

8MbYS7X.jpg

UgF694K.jpg

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read a report from asahi news saying that he went to the interview with his lawyer ......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Takanohana is doing his best to close the gaps in his defense: he claims that the publication of the medical certificate of Takanoiwa by the NSK was not just and fair, because it shows that Takanoiwa's injuries were light, while he claims they were and are severe  - though actually he himself (put onto it by his lawyers, no doubt) with this is the first to publicly notice the fact that his injuries were shown as not really severe (and in fact not enough to go kyujo) through this certificate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTgdHOd4rxI

About Taka cooperating for the first time today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNNhTiYsJQ

The channel who posted this has a lot of interesting recent TV reports, more about the scandal and also the wedding press conference of Takarafuji and about Naya.

The 15 pages by Taka the other day were collected afterwards (and disappeared) and nothing has been passed to the press (except gossip).

Edited by Akinomaki
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19.12.2017 at 22:58, Kintamayama said:

Possible punishments, in order of severity:

Dismissal

Intai recommendation

Demotion

Suspension of duties

Suspension of appearance

Reduction in salary

Censure

Half of the Kyokai is for taking it easy, or at least waiting for the Kyokai's investigation to end, while the other half wishes to deal severe punishment. That being said, Isegahama is probably in for a demotion. OTOH, some are saying it's going to be very difficult to demote Takanohana and are suggesting a "suspension of duties". If this suspension will be for long,  it will have a strong bearing on the coming elections in January, so tomorrow will be an interesting day indeed.

According to Sports Hochi suspension of duties and demotion from director are both on the table for Takanohana, and the report indicates that "suspension" would also include him being disallowed to lead keiko for the specified period, not just affect his director duties. A demotion would have to be certified by the hyogiin-kai (board of trustees), as they're technically in charge of appointing and discharging directors, and a meeting of that body has been scheduled for after the directors' meeting on the 28th.

Edited by Asashosakari
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this after mass? 21st of December it says. Isn't mass on December 25th? And terrible translation. Still, beggars etc..

Spoiler

I know, I know, aftermath, I know..

 

Edited by Kintamayama
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I have beem following this story , I haven't yet contributed to this thread or its predecessor save for a few attempts at being funny. That's because I don't entirely know what I'm talking about. However, many- probably most- of the participating forum members also don't entirely know what they're talking about, no offence. In fact, there is a chance that  n o b o d y  here entirely knows what they're talking about, because there is still more information that hasn't reached us yet. Said hypothetical information might have also reached one member of the forum, who isn't allowed to tell us what's going on. Also, when did not knowing what one is talking about ever stop a relatively anonymous and relatively unknown joe schmoe on the internet from spouting off his take on the matter?

So here's my take on the matter.

1. Takanoiwa was being a little shit. I don't know what he did in September or whenever that he was being lectured about in the karaoke bar that fateful night, but I guess he was being enough of a little shit to

2. deserve a stern talking-to, and maybe minor physical ear-clout (?) by his elders and 'betters'. At least, make said elders and betters think that he deserved it. And in any case, corporal punishment issued by elders and betters unto lesser rikishi is nothing new.

I suspect Takanohana thinks this is very wrong. According to him, this practice is very wrong inherently and he wants change to be made on this front. His dream is to climb up the ladder of power and orchestrate a series of changes in how the kyokai works. As jungyo chief he can do next to bugger-all, but as riji his voice could be heard and his rank, especially accompanied by his name, might be too bulky to sweep under the rug. 

3.  Now Takanoiwa's girlfriend has really bad timing. As in, seriously that was a horribly bad moment to send the email. Had she had a second cup of koucha an hour earlier and needed to go pee at that specific time, all this would have probably never happened. Anyway, at this stage Takanoiwa, who is already being administered a lecture on how he should maybe be less of a little shit, continues to be a little shit. 

This kills the Takanoiwa.

4. Now Harumafuji, drunk and belligerent and now extremely angry, smacks Takanoiwa with the remote (it was a remote right? This we do know by now.) Hakuhou and the rest of the Mongolians probably thought he had it coming. After all, he knew this is the sumo world. He could almost certainly tell how much of a little shit he was being. So they don't stop him. But Harumafuji keeps on pummeling like there's no tomorrow, thereby sealing himself into a fate which there would indeed be no tomorrow. The rest of the guys, also probably drunk, are slow to react. Hakuhou's drunken mind probably went form "serves you right" to "bit too harsh but maybe not so much" to "holy hell, this isn't my job to stop them" to realising he should stop Harumafuji with a few seconds of lag. Takanoiwa felt every one of those seconds in the morning.

5. OK, here begins the proper scandal. Takanoiwa and Harumafuji seem to have settled this between them well enough amogst themselves (probably?) to not make a scene in their press conference questions about one another. Takanohana swoops into matters, throws Takanoiwa in the kyujo dungeon and goes to the police. Bold move. Unprecedented or at least exceedingly rare. Why did he do this? Because that way he could be heard. If he tried to go the in-house route he wouldn't have the opportunity to change things like he wants to. Adding to that, his guy got pummeled by someone who wasn't his guy. He wants to do something about that. If you told me that someone beat the crap out of my child I would immediately lose it, partly because I never knew that I had a child, but mainly I'd be downright furious. Whether Takanohana wanted Harumafuji out is a different matter and I won't go into it because I really know nothing about it other than forum talk sans source, but I think that if the beating was dealt with in-house, Harumafuji would still be active.

6. Geopolitically, the karaoke bar is very interesting, and the net result is more power to Takanohana. The whole thing happened behind closed doors, yes, but the kanji "Nihon Sumo Kyokai" were not engraved on those doors. If Hakkaku were to walk in, and the police had already been called in, he wouldn't be able to do anything. Hakkaku is just a guy in that context. Harumafuji is just a perpetrator, Takanoiwa is just a victim. It's not like that poor young man who died inside his heya, or whatever happened to Homarenishiki. Those were a different kind of closed doors. But they were still closed, it wasn't in the middle of the street, which makes things easier to be kept secret. This also gives to more power to the orchestrators of any shady business going on backstage, who may or may not include Takanohana, to stay covert. But I'll mark this last bit with a huge "we don't know what's going on there" stamp.

7.  Something else that resulted in more power to Takanohana, but, as Moti pointed out in his excellent opener to the devil's advocate thread which you really should read if you haven't already, may come to be grounds for sanctions against him in the end, is that Takanohana is both Takanoiwa's shisho and the jungyo chief. If the jungyo chief was any other guy, the non-submittal of a health certificate to the would-be jungyo chief would probably be the start of an inter-elder row. But now, the jungyo bureaucracy was something that definitely did get settled in-house. And again giving more power to Takanohana, said house was his own heya and not the NSK. 

All in all I think this was the perfect opportunity for Takanohana to blow the whistle and try to bring change. Did he succeed? Too early to tell. Did he do the right thing? We don't know the full story, and it might also be too early to tell. Did he act like this because he wanted to be a good oyakata, because he fancies himself a rebel harbourer of change for the better, or simply out of eccentricity and megalomania? It's not for me to tell you what to think about him or his actions, nor is it for anyone else. Myself, I'll kind of keep my opinion on him to myself and kind of suspend judgement until more info surfaces.

 

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, McBugger said:

1. Takanoiwa was being a little shit. I don't know what he did in September or whenever that he was being lectured about in the karaoke bar that fateful night, but I guess he was being enough of a little shit to

 

Oh, we know that bit. Takanoiwa was dissing the Yokozunae in public a month before the incident at a get together, saying " they are done and it's the next generation's turn now." Bad luck for him that a close Hakuhou friend was there and told him. Hakuhou decided that that night in Tottori was the right time to give Takanoiwa his piece of mind. Phone call. Takanoiwa ("I thought he was done with the lecture") answers.Boom. Harumafuji loses it on Hakuhou's behalf. An afterthought- I'm pretty sure if it was a Japanese rikishi answering the phone, all this would not have happened.

Edited by Kintamayama
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

An afterthought- I'm pretty sure if it was a Japanese rikishi answering the phone, all this would not have happened.

What would not have happened? The fight or the scandal?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

What would not have happened? The fight or the scandal?

The fight. The attack. The assault. It's complicated. But my feeling is strong.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

The fight. The attack. The assault. It's complicated. But my feeling is strong.

Really? Are you saying that the Japanese don't get into drunken fights? I defer to your knowledge, but I am surprised by your statement above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Really? Are you saying that the Japanese don't get into drunken fights? I defer to your knowledge, but I am surprised by your statement above.

Maybe he meant Harumafuji wouldn't have hit a japanese rikishi. Or a japanese rikishi wouldn't have answered the phone. Or a japanese rikishi never would've dissed a yokozuna in public in the first place.

Edited by Benihana
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Benihana said:

Maybe he meant Harumafuji wouldn't have hit a japanese rikishi. Or a japanese rikishi wouldn't have answered the phone. Or a japanese rikishi never would've dissed a yokozuna in public in the first place.

Exactly, Benihana. I thought I was being pretty obvious there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, McBugger said:

 

4. Now Harumafuji, drunk and belligerent and now extremely angry

 

 

I think it's been established by the crisis investigation committee, and said by Harumafuji himself, that he was in fact not drunk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then we can all put this behind us and never mention nor think about this ever again...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now