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Washuyama

Hakuho's dominance to continue?

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4 hours ago, OneManGang said:

He has a career as a ballet dancer lined up for him after retirement. No MMA or K-1 for him. 

Incidentally, I went to a ballet performance on Saturday and was sad to realize that the guys there were just sumo wrestlers without fat.

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10 hours ago, itchyknee said:

Ahhh....

The GOAT in Mongolian wrestling won 13 yearly tournaments.  Hakuho would need 78 championships to match this.  I thought he might have gone for it.

It is difficult to make a comparison between yearly tournament and a 6-tournament year. Your comment implies that Hakuho should have won each one of the 6 tournaments to equal a yearly tournament.

But in the period 2007 - 2017, in each year, he is the one who has the most yusho. The only year he is tied for the most yusho is 2012 : 2 with Harumafuji (but Hakuho has more wins in the whole year). That could worth 11 yearly tournaments couln't it?

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20 hours ago, Nantonoyama said:

It is difficult to make a comparison between yearly tournament and a 6-tournament year.

Hakuho himself made the comparison after winning his 36th yusho, which he regarded as equalling his father's six Naadam championships.

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Anyway, Hakuho winning 50 means that Chiyonofuji’s kanreki dohyo-iri Yusho count will surpass Taiho’s. 

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7 hours ago, rhyen said:

Anyway, Hakuho winning 50 means that Chiyonofuji’s kanreki dohyo-iri Yusho count will surpass Taiho’s. 

How?

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Taiho’s kanreki dohyo iri featured Taiho’s (32), Chiyonofuji (31) & Kitanoumi (24)

Chiyonofuji’s one had Chiyonofuji (31), Hakuho (40 and counting) & Harumafuji (9).

If Hakuho wins 7 more Yusho (in the 16 Basho between now and Nagoya 2020, assuming he retires after Aki 2020), the 2 kanreki dohyo iri would have the same number of Yusho total among the 3 members. 8th would break the record. 

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14 hours ago, rhyen said:

Anyway, Hakuho winning 50 means that Chiyonofuji’s kanreki dohyo-iri Yusho count will surpass Taiho’s. 

Not if it's the number of yushos at the time of the kanreki dohyo-iri. Whatever the active yokozuna does afterwards hasn't happened yet.

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And not if it's adjusted for differences in cultural exchange. Lacking a solid trading market for relative cultural values, we can erroneously substitute currency values into the equation. The tugrik is trading at 21.67 to the yen, so Hakuho's mongolian wins are currently worth about 1.85 Japanese yusho, and Haramafuji is trading an a measly 0.41 yusho, for a total of 2.26 yusho. On the face of it, Kisenosato's 2 yusho have generated roughly the same level of excitement as Harumafuji and Hakuho's careers combined, so these figures appear sound. Therefore, technically, Chiyonofuji has only 33.26 yusho in his kanreki dohyo-iri.

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Given Harumafuji's retirement, and the health of Kise and Kakuryu, and the huge chip that may be on his shoulder after the past month, I'm looking for Hakuho to make a run at the first clean sweep of all six tournaments in a calendar year since 2005. There are so many good up-and-comers, but without Harumafuji or a healthy Kisenosato, I don't see who's in a great position to stop him...

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On 12/11/2017 at 02:40, Nantonoyama said:

It is difficult to make a comparison between yearly tournament and a 6-tournament year. Your comment implies that Hakuho should have won each one of the 6 tournaments to equal a yearly tournament.

But in the period 2007 - 2017, in each year, he is the one who has the most yusho. The only year he is tied for the most yusho is 2012 : 2 with Harumafuji (but Hakuho has more wins in the whole year). That could worth 11 yearly tournaments couln't it?

What RabidJohn said, but your thought would be a fair comparison.

Looking closer at his record and the Mongolian wrestling records I'd say the Sumo zenshos are also a fair comparison between the two.

  Name   Wins Runner-up  
1 Badmaanyambuugiin Bat-Erdene   11 1  
2 Khorloogiin Bayanmönkh   10 2  
3 Badamdorigiin Tüvdendorj   7 2  
4 Jigjidiin Mönkhbat   6 4  
5 Dariin Damdin   5 5  
6 Dashdorjiin Tserentogtokh   4 5  
7 Sharaviin Batsuuri   2 2  
8 Gelegjamtsiin Ösökhbayar   4 1  
9 Agvaansamdangiin Sükhbat   3 -  
10 Natsagiin Jamyan   2 1  

Seems pretty comparable to:

Most undefeated championships

  Name Total Years
1 Hakuhō 13 2007–
2 Futabayama 8 1936–43
Taihō 8 1963–69
4 Tachiyama 7 1910–15
Kitanoumi 7 1977–84
Chiyonofuji 7 1983–89
7 Tochigiyama 6 1917–25
8 Asashōryū 5 2004–06
9 Haguroyama 4 1944–52
Tsunenohana 4 1921–28
Takanohana II 4 1994–96

So Hakuho's got them all beat already.

       
       
       
     
       
     
     
       
       
       
     
     
Edited by itchyknee

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11 hours ago, jranderson222 said:

Given Harumafuji's retirement, and the health of Kise and Kakuryu, and the huge chip that may be on his shoulder after the past month, I'm looking for Hakuho to make a run at the first clean sweep of all six tournaments in a calendar year since 2005. There are so many good up-and-comers, but without Harumafuji or a healthy Kisenosato, I don't see who's in a great position to stop him...

I hadn't even thought about that. Hakuhou has equaled Asashouryuu's run of seven consecutive championship wins in 2010-2011, but he has never won all of them in one calendar year. He has a great chance to do that now.

That final tournament of the year was truly legendary:

(Take special note of Hakuhou's pathetic footnote performance, as he uses a henka on Asashouryuu, even briefly sees his back, and then still loses. And the purple rain descending on Kotooushuu.)

Edited by dada78641
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13 hours ago, jranderson222 said:

Given Harumafuji's retirement, and the health of Kise and Kakuryu, and the huge chip that may be on his shoulder after the past month, I'm looking for Hakuho to make a run at the first clean sweep of all six tournaments in a calendar year since 2005. There are so many good up-and-comers, but without Harumafuji or a healthy Kisenosato, I don't see who's in a great position to stop him...

IMHO, it is a far more likely that all 6 honbashos are won by 6 different rikishi than that Hakuho wins all 6 in 2018.

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3 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

IMHO, it is a far more likely that all 6 honbashos are won by 6 different rikishi than that Hakuho wins all 6 in 2018.

And the last time that happened was 1991. Kirishima, Hokutoumi, Asahifuji, Kotofuji, Kotonishiki, Konishiki. What makes that year even more special: 1992 was the last year that saw 2 maegashira yusho (Takahanada , Mitoizumi), but 1991 was the only year with 2 maegashira yusho from the same heya, Kotofuji and Kotonishiki from Sadogatake-beya. The only other year with 2 maegashira yusho was 1972 (Tochiazuma, Takamiyama).

Edited by Benihana
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On 12/14/2017 at 13:38, dada78641 said:

I hadn't even thought about that. Hakuhou has equaled Asashouryuu's run of seven consecutive championship wins in 2010-2011, but he has never won all of them in one calendar year. He has a great chance to do that now.

That final tournament of the year was truly legendary:

(Take special note of Hakuhou's pathetic footnote performance, as he uses a henka on Asashouryuu, even briefly sees his back, and then still loses. And the purple rain descending on Kotooushuu.)

 

How I miss watching Asa on the Dohyo...

 

 

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Time to revisit this thread ladies and gents. Sounds as though Hakuho has committed to continuing his active career until the Olympics next year. How do you guys think he will fare until then? Will he continue on until 50 yusho? Of course with sumo on hold for now, we are thus far down one potential yusho win....

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50 looks very difficult. At the current rate he's getting like 1-2 yusho per year. He surely won't get 6 more up to next summer.

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Asanoyama will almost certainly snap up a couple, and if Takakeisho can get himself back together he's a contender too. Kakkuryu will probably get one. And January has been a weird one-off winner for several years in a row. No particular reason for that trend to continue, but no reason for it not to either. 

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On 16/12/2017 at 17:23, slt said:

 

How I miss watching Asa on the Dohyo...

 

 

Half empty arena. Lots of people missed it, even back then. Fan support was really in the doldrums. It would have been so easy to get tickets. Not like today.

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On 21/05/2020 at 05:27, hakutorizakura said:

50 looks very difficult. At the current rate he's getting like 1-2 yusho per year. He surely won't get 6 more up to next summer.

True. But depending upon how many he does get between now and next summer, I wouldn’t be surprised if he held out for a bit longer to reach 50. I mean, there is no possible way I personally could stop at 47 or 48 yusho without giving one last go at 50, but that’s just me.

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Depending on your definition of dominance you could make the case that Hakuho never got back to “dominance” even after Harumafuji retired. He’s still the man to beat, but he isn’t winning as constantly as before. We still expect him to win but we aren’t as surprised when he doesn’t. And if he won the July, September, and November bashos this year I think we’d all be more surprised than if he only won one of them.
 

Looking at the last few years Hakuho’s biggest issue has been injury as he either has a great basho or he exits early. He’s won 2 out of the last 3 but was out early in the other one. Age seems to be catching him faster than his competitors, but give credit it’s due, he’s still outpacing both.

Do I think he gets to 50? Probably not, as he’d really need to have a resurgence reminiscent of the earlier 2010’s and there  are a few rising stars who seem poised to stop that from happening.

But one comment I will make, with Hakuho no longer the sure fire champion every basho I like him a lot more and appreciate his accomplishments better than in the past. When he was winning everything it took away some of the fun of sumo, much like the Yankees or Lakers dominating their sports did. But now I can appreciate and even cheer for him when in the past I usually wanted to see someone else the winner.

 

 

 

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Great analysis Katsunorifuji, thank you. How many yusho do you see him retiring with then?

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16 hours ago, Chanko Thief said:

Great analysis Katsunorifuji, thank you. How many yusho do you see him retiring with then?

Great question! I’m not very good at sports predictions (I’ll keep predicting Takakeisho for the yusho every basho until he wins again!) but I feel pretty comfortable predicting Hakuho retires with 47. I think he will win July and either September or November this year. But I think he only gets one more next year before the Asanoyamas and Mitakeumis of the next generation assert themselves.

I’ll give myself a cushion of +/- 1 and say I could see him ending at 46 or 48 but he’s gotta win at least two more with as good as he still is. 

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Concur. I think as the superannuated rikishi fade, over the next year we'll see some low-ranked maegashira win. But, Hakuho is still good for at least two, assuming he stays in until the Olympics.

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