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Kaminariyuki

Steroids, HGH and other performance enhancing drugs?

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I'm sure this has been discussed, but the Harumafuji incident made me particularly curious. The combination of steroids and alcohol is a combo pretty donducive to momentary violence

So, do these guys juice?

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This has been discussed a few times in the past. There are always some people who claim that rikishi are on steroids, but to my knowledge there has never been any evidence of it, indirect or otherwise.

One would have to think that anabolic steroid use would be accompanied with side effects, such as acne. Rikishi with acne problems are few and far between...Harumafuji has some acne scars, but not much more than I do. Steroid users also tend to get back acne.

Also, I find it doubtful that no one would ever talk about steroid abuse. There should've been at least one or two cases of ex-rikishi sounding the alarm bell in all those decades. That's just me, though—obviously you can't prove a negative, so this means nothing. But these things tend to come to light eventually.

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There is no way to know if any athlete is clean or not nowadays, and in the closed world of sumo this is even more the case. Everything is therefore speculation.

However, I would be comfortable speculating that using some sort of performance enhancing drug is not uncommon in sumo. The general public perception of PED usage is that everyone who uses them turns into Mr Hyde, with a high blood pressure and back acne. This is fuelled by their every-day use (misuse?) in gyms all over the world, and the bodies of the people who use them.

In reality, the range of available PEDs is much greater, and their effects are much more diverse too. A huge range of substances  can be taken at small doses to produce great benefits for professional sportspeople, with minimal side effects. Also, their use in simply speeding up recovery from training (rather than greatly increasing performance during training), is something people fail to take into account.

For instance, this weighlifter tested positive for nandrolone and equipoise (read: testosterone) at the event that footage was filmed at. If you saw him walking down the street, would your mind leap to the conclusion he was on PEDs?

In sumo, I can think of a lot of uses people would find for PEDs. I would be interested in hearing from more knowledgeable forum users on the current state of drug testing in the stables, and/or the current attitude towards PEDs of the sumo administration (if there is any way to guess this!).

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I'm fairly knowledgeable about steroids for a layman, though I've never used them, and here's my view.

1. "Roid rage" is just a pop-media myth. An increase in testosterone (steroids are testosterone or synthetic testosterone) will generally make a male user feel more "up", with an increase in energy, wakefulness, positive mood states, etc. So whatever a person's underlying personality is, it might create a more assertive version of it, but spells of rage or uncontrollable aggression are not a side effect of steroids.

There's a huge population of non-athlete steroid users that no one ever seems to think of: middle-aged and elderly men. Whether it's called "Testosterone Replacement Therapy" or "Hormone Treatment", it's just steroid use--the addition of testosterone from outside the body. It'll help those guys get hard, avoid depression, and feel more energetic, but there's no epidemic of baby boomer-aged men going berserk from roid rage.

2. Steroids can be classed by their balance of angrogenic and anabolic effects. Endogenous testosterone (the stuff your body makes naturally), is considered 50/50: androgenic effects are things associated with male physical puberty/maturity/aging (acne, hair loss, prostate enlargement, mood changes etc) and are not desired by steroid users, while anabolic effects are what steroid users do desire--tissue repair and growth. The reason synthetic steroids exist is because they attempt to modify testosterone to reduce androgenic effects while preserving anabolic effects. In the first place, not everyone will respond to exogenous (from outside the body) testosterone by presenting the same side effects; some may get acne, some may lose some hair, some may not--there is no sinlge tell-tale side effect when it comes to androgenic side effects. And, of course, people get acne and lose their hair without steroids, too.

Furthermore, there are drugs which combat the androgenic effects of steroids, so looking for "signs" of androgenic effects is meaningless.

The choice of synthetic steroid an athlete will make will depend on the demands of their sport and the kind of testing they will face, and also determine what kinds of side effects they may experience. A sumo wrestler doesn't care about water retention, or sparing lean mass at low bodyfat levels, or promoting aerobic endurance, so he'll be using different steroids than a bodybuilder or baseball player or cyclist. This means that you can't apply eye tests that might be useful for one kind of athlete suspected of using steroids on another kind of athlete.

Most of the pop-wisdom about signs of steroid use come from the 60s when there was straight testosterone, oral Dianabol, and really nothing else. The ripped guy at your gym using Trenbolone E  won't "show the signs" either, but he's using all the same--just newer, better engineered stuff.

Additionally, modern steroid users will be book ending their cycles with female fertility drugs to help their body maintain normal, healthy function, and further suppress any unwanted side effects.

 

3. There are performance enhancing drugs besides steroids and GH, but first a note on GH: despite it's name, the use of Growth Hormone in athletics is very misunderstood by the public. In physique/weight class sports, GH is largely used to preserve muscle mass while getting lean/maintaining a controlled bodyweight. In other sports, it tends to be a minor component of a PED regimen.

The drug I'd expect sumo wrestlers to be using besides steroids is insulin. Insulin will promote anabolism (growth) beyond what a body will naturally do--and would fit well with the massive carbohydrate intake which is typical of a wrestler's diet. I believe Takanoyama was caught using insulin at one time.

 

4. On the anabolic side, male bodies tend to have the strongest concentration of androgen receptors at the top of their bodies, and fewer as one moves toward the feet, and steroid users report that their trap and shoulder muscles quickly increase in size before the rest of their bodies starts to catch up. This means that one "eye test" that is useful is looking at a guy's shoulders+arm, specifically the traps. Chiyonofuji is the best example, but it can been seen on Hakuho and various others also: based on their style of sport and training, both have disproportionately developed traps and arms. This isn't proof of anything, but it is something to notice when trying to assess the probability that an athlete is using steroids.

 

CONCLUSION

Steroids help with all kinds of physical performance, and even strict testing can reliably be beaten with a proper approach, though random testing can be a problem, and I don't know what sumo's protocol is. It's been proven that wrestlers will fix matches to benefit their careers, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't use steroids if they thought they could get away with it.

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1 hour ago, dada78641 said:

This has been discussed a few times in the past. There are always some people who claim that rikishi are on steroids, but to my knowledge there has never been any evidence of it, indirect or otherwise.

One would have to think that anabolic steroid use would be accompanied with side effects, such as acne. Rikishi with acne problems are few and far between...Harumafuji has some acne scars, but not much more than I do. Steroid users also tend to get back acne.

Also, I find it doubtful that no one would ever talk about steroid abuse. There should've been at least one or two cases of ex-rikishi sounding the alarm bell in all those decades. That's just me, though—obviously you can't prove a negative, so this means nothing. But these things tend to come to light eventually.

As far as I have been able to find, only one peer reviewed study has ever shown a causative effect of one kind of PED on acne. The remainder found the data inconclusive or negative with respect to a causative impact.

With the heavy regulation and control of most drugs in Japan combined with the massive social stigma and general lack of availability (unlike the US where they are easy to come by), I would personally expect that any abuse would be of the medical mis-perscription variety. HGH or other such therapeutic drug.

Quite frankly I expect the bigger problem to be pain medication abuse at the highest levels. How many times have we seen injuries that would be expected to hospitalize or confine to bed other athletes for days or weeks, yet the Rikishi returns to competition within a day or two (or improbably wins a Basho).

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2 hours ago, Thundersnow said:

I'm sure this has been discussed, but the Harumafuji incident made me particularly curious. The combination of steroids and alcohol is a combo pretty donducive to momentary violence

So, do these guys juice?

Alcohol alone is pretty conductive to violence. There is no need to look beyond that one drug.

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Let me also add that I believe sumos and athletes generally should be permitted to use steroids. There's no evidence that properly managed use of these kinds of drugs is a fatal threat to a person, and it's CERTAINLY less hazardous then being 350lbs, getting the shit beaten out of your head at the tachi-ai and with palm strikes, and all the alcohol these guys drink. Most of the "deaths from steroids" you hear about are heart attacks caused by being HEAVY, which rikishi obviously are and will be regardless of steroid use.

If steroids allow wrestlers to maintain a high level of strength and athleticism at a lower bodyweight it's probably a better option then having 500 and 600-pound guys gasping for air after throwing salt.

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Takanoyama (a fellow Czech, hurrah!) was indeed caught taking insulin, didnt help him gain mass though...bad metabolism means bad luck for sumo, had he been 10-15kg heavier, he could have been at least as good as Amuuru.

Insulin is very useful indeed, had it not been for the risk of causing a diabetes onset. Mass gainer nutrition supplements would be much better, possibly safer and from what I've seen and heard about sumo, such options are currently severely underexplored

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I remember posting about the last anti-drug lectures by the NSK - and only found one that is already 5 years old, though I'm sure there was something similar after this - the thread itself is of the usual weird-allegation-type, I think this starting point is OK: http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/30065-steroids-in-sumo-one-man-has-it-figured-out/?do=findComment&comment=225989

We have several (started as) news threads from Kintamayama about earlier such actions by the NSK:

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/12569-nsk-to-establish-anti-doping-committee/

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/17359-anti-doping-committee/

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/13452-doping-tests-to-start/

and we also have more old discussion threads like this one (likely even more):

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/5041-does-sumo-need-an-anti-doping-program/

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/8248-drugs-in-sumo/

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/4328-sumo-and-doping/

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7 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

I remember posting about the last anti-drug lectures by the NSK - and only found one that is already 5 years old, though I'm sure there was something similar after this

I think the anti-drug PSAs have been folded into the lecture about general medical issues that all rikishi have to sit through once (?) a year.

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I suppose I should be ashamed asking questions that I know perfectly well that I could hunt through the forum and find myself. Particularly when Akinomaki pastes a handful of threads (I'll check a couple of those out). But, no, you fellows seem so willing to help us newbies come up to speed, I just go on and ask. Hey, we have to have something to talk about until January.

neonbelly makes an excellent point about steroids vs. general weight gain in terms of danger to the athletes. I suppose I'm old school here and really feel like folks should play straight in competition and that the differences between winners and losers shouldn't com from a syringe or a pill bottle. That's a bit naive, I know, and in truth I've used dexamethazone myself when mountain climbing in my earlier years. Well, I used it until a doctor at a high altitude clinic in Nepal told me to stop. "That medication should only be used to help you get down off the mountain in an emergency, not to help you get to an altitude at which you do not belong."  Duh.... When I repeated that to the physician who'd prescribed it to me, we both looked at each other and laughed, knowing we could have figured that out on our own. They make a big difference, IMO. I'd say on the low dosage I was taking, I performed about 30-40% above my true capability.

Either way, I'm hooked on sumo whether they're juicing or not. I'm thinking about returning to Japan in May again, and catching one day of the basho, but for the first time maybe we'll get a lower level box and have a little picnic with a bottle of imo shochu. Fine way to spend a day, IMO. Knocks the socks off of baseball, no offense to fans of that sport.

 

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34 minutes ago, Thundersnow said:

I suppose I'm old school here and really feel like folks should play straight in competition and that the differences between winners and losers shouldn't com from a syringe or a pill bottle.

I know that feeling, but when I think about it, "the difference" always has to come from somewhere, and it can never entirely be effort and virtue. Genetically-influenced physical traits are an obvious example, but technology has always played a role in "enhancing" athlete performance, too. From simple knee and elbow sleeves to surgically reconstructed body parts, plus the scientifically-produced innovations in diet, training equipment and training methodology, what a wrestler brings to the ring is always going to be an expression of the technological environment he comes from. We tend to think of surgery/therapy and tape/braces as something that restores a rikishi to a "natural" state, but the fact is it's natural for bodies under stress to break down and fail, and we use technological interventions to prevent this "unnaturally".

If steroid use is against the rules, a rikishi should not do it. However, there ought to be a good reason for it to be outlawed, and I've never heard one that makes a convincing harm/benefit case. Additionally, if an organization can't test in a way that all but guarantees users will be caught it puts athletes into a game theory problem which recommends the use of steroids out of rational self interest ("I know my competition is doing it, so I have to, too"). In effect, the organization is simultaneously forbidding steroid use on pain of suspension/expulsion, and obligating its athletes to use steroids if they want to be competitive and have successful careers.

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19 hours ago, maorencze said:

 Mass gainer nutrition supplements would be much better, possibly safer and from what I've seen and heard about sumo, such options are currently severely underexplored

Mass gainers are usually just protein powder + oats for extra calories. In other words, they're food.

Rikishi already eat food (rather a lot, I'm told) so this wouldn't be an alternative to steroids or other PEDs.

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50 minutes ago, just_some_guy said:

Mass gainers are usually just protein powder + oats for extra calories. In other words, they're food.

Rikishi already eat food (rather a lot, I'm told) so this wouldn't be an alternative to steroids or other PEDs.

 

All the same, we could totally make money off a supplement called "Yolk-o-zuna Mass".

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2 hours ago, neonbelly said:

 

All the same, we could totally make money off a supplement called "Yolk-o-zuna Mass".

Marketed alongside our caffeine pills, Ichino-doze, and our Goei-dough bread baking kits.

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On 29/11/2017 at 08:12, neonbelly said:

 However, there ought to be a good reason for it to be outlawed, and I've never heard one that makes a convincing harm/benefit case. 

How about the fact that it is cheating? That's a good enough reason for it to be outlawed as far as I'm concerned. There are a whole heap of sports which have been absolutely ruined by some of the athletes being on PEDs and some not. Cycling comes to mind, as does McGuire and Sosa and Bonds (et al) in baseball. I wonder what Hank Aaron thinks of steroids? Every Russian athlete of the past ten years, the East Germans in the 60s and 70s, the Chinese swimmers in the 90s. Most sport fans like to think that competition occurs on an even playing field, that the best will actually win. PEDs ruin that, and ruin the enjoyment of sporting competition for a large proportion of fans. And for the athlete that doesn't want to juice but can't compete without the drugs, where does that leave them? What is the point of sport if it doesn't represent actual even competition? I couldn't care if it is 100% safe - if it provides an unfair advantage it should be outlawed.

And I know the same argument can be made for a whole range of non-drug things (like carbon fibre technology, corked bats, sharkskin swimsuits etc) that also potentially provide an advantage, but in sumo most of those don't apply. 

 

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... and all of the Kenyan marathoners, pretty much every American in track and field. The problem is properly administered PEDs can easily avoid showing up on any kind of testing. Especially people who have naturally low numbers, they can receive many more boosters before they reach the statistical limit of elite athletes. It is very bizarre to me when a sport goes through some PED scandal and the top guys are caught, introduce new testing, say they are clean, then the athletes continue putting up the same (or better!) times. Then most people believe them! It isn't even limited to the pros. Most of the people who played basketball in my high school were on steroids. My cousins shopped doctors until they found one to give them steroids for some 'deficiency' when they played high school baseball so they could try to break in professionally.

For me it is hardly worth thinking about because it is so impossible to control. At least here, it starts early. There is huge incentive, a D1 scholarship to a good (academic) university can save the athlete upwards of $250,000.

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A lot relies on when the tests are taken and if the people responsible for the tests are clean themselves.

The was an interesting story on Spiegel Online (sadly only german) a few days ago. Pamela Dutkiewicz, a world class hurdler told how she experienced doping tests and how strict the system is in Germany. You ALWAYS have to let the anti doping agency know where you will be in the following days. When the testers pay you a visit and you are not where you are supposed to be, you're in deep trouble, because that's a strike. 3 strikes and you're out. Fun fact: You can get suspended although you have never been on the same continent with forbidden substances, just by fucking up your schedule! People even take photographs of their smartphone screens to be able to prove they were in a dead spot and had no chance to contact the agency. And now imagine this: You're on a date, food and company are very fine, you're going to score tonight! Suddenly a guy approaches you and asks you to the restrooms. And you can do NOTHING but obey or score a strike. In the restroom you have to expose yourself, so the tester is sure you don't use urine from a hidden bag or even a fake wiener. After some paperwork you are free to get back to your date...if (s)he's still there. These tests can happen anytime and anywhere, literally.

Sounds fun, doesn't it?

This system is very rigid, very painful for the athletes and an absolute nightmare in terms data security and privacy. But it is very effective. And you don't need to be a top athlete to get tested in such a manner, at least not in present germany. @Morty it weren't only the East Germans back then...

And then there are other countries, where at least half of the athletes should be banned, just for not being reachable for tests, if there were any tests in the first place...

This really aggravates me. We won't get completely rid of doping, but sports would be a lot cleaner if only f***t**** in power didn't undermine the system.

Sorry for the random rant :-D

Edited by Benihana
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25 minutes ago, Benihana said:

f***t**** in power

I'm so embarrassed that I don't know what this stands for ... but don't tell me!

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1 hour ago, Benihana said:

A lot relies on when the tests are taken and if the people responsible for the tests are clean themselves.

The was an interesting story on Spiegel Online (sadly only german) a few days ago. Pamela Dutkiewicz, a world class hurdler told how she experienced doping tests and how strict the system is in Germany. You ALWAYS have to let the anti doping agency know where you will be in the following days. When the testers pay you a visit and you are not where you are supposed to be, you're in deep trouble, because that's a strike. 3 strikes and you're out. Fun fact: You can get suspended although you have never been on the same continent with forbidden substances, just by fucking up your schedule! People even take photographs of their smartphone screens to be able to prove they were in a dead spot and had no chance to contact the agency. And now imagine this: You're on a date, food and company are very fine, you're going to score tonight! Suddenly a guy approaches you and asks you to the restrooms. And you can do NOTHING but obey or score a strike. In the restroom you have to expose yourself, so the tester is sure you don't use urine from a hidden bag or even a fake wiener. After some paperwork you are free to get back to your date...if (s)he's still there. These tests can happen anytime and anywhere, literally.

Sounds fun, doesn't it?

This system is very rigid, very painful for the athletes and an absolute nightmare in terms data security and privacy. But it is very effective.

This is the system that the UFC has for its fighters via USADA (US branch of WADA, World Anti-Doping Agency). Is it effective? Sure. Are there still plenty of fighters using stuff they're not supposed to? Yep.

The bottom line with these things is that there will always be people trying to cheat to get an advantage, and of those people some will get away with it. You're left with two options:

1) Strict testing programs as a deterrent (and let's face it, they're a deterrent not a flawless method of prevention or detection)
2) Let everyone use what they want.

The problem with 1 is it's only semi-effective. The problem with 2 is that steroids are illegal in many countries, so it's not likely to change anytime soon.

There really isn't a great solution.

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I agree that it is difficult, if not impossible to police without significantly infringing on people's rights. There is no easy answer, especially where sporting salaries are in the millions and the difference between making the team and getting cut can come down to milliseconds. But my point was that PEDs just ruin sport in general. So for me an imperfect testing regime is better than none, and it should be enforced with life bans rather than slaps on the wrist.

One of the reasons I love sumo so much is because money hasn't ruined it like it has so many other sports. I don't follow football, cycling, the Olympics and a number of other sports anymore because money has completely ruined them. PEDs are only a part of that. My interest in baseball and Aussie Rules footy has been lessened (but not killed) by the same phenomena. As my interest in other sports has waned my interest in sumo has increased. I would like it to not be ruined for me by finding out, for example, that the person I thought was the GOAT was juiced the whole time. To be clear, I'm not saying he is or ever has been, just that that would ruin it for me in the same way that finding out that Lance Armstrong was juiced to the gills (as were all his opponents) killed cycling for me.

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On 11/29/2017 at 03:29, Morningstar said:


With the heavy regulation and control of most drugs in Japan combined with the massive social stigma and general lack of availability (unlike the US where they are easy to come by), I would personally expect that any abuse would be of the medical mis-perscription variety. HGH or other such therapeutic drug.

Quite frankly I expect the bigger problem to be pain medication abuse at the highest levels. How many times have we seen injuries that would be expected to hospitalize or confine to bed other athletes for days or weeks, yet the Rikishi returns to competition within a day or two (or improbably wins a Basho).

Steroids are not illegal in Japan. Personal possession and use is allowed.

Opioids are highly regulated in Japan. Doctors need to receive an extra license to prescribe them, and they almost never do except in cases of terminal cancer. Even EMTs are not allowed to administer them. Big pharma is working hard to change this.

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Are steroids prohibited in sumo ? As for painkillers, I wouldn´t necessarily expect opiods to be an issue. But in an age where average gym goers are washing down copious amounts of ibuprofen before and after training sessions to numb their joints, I wouldn´t be surprised if a similar routine would exist in sumo.

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