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Asashosakari

Double-checking the Sumo DB's names of foreign rikishi - Mongolia

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Asashosakari    8,447

And part 3 for the ever-increasing Mongolian rikishi population. Shimodahito already had a very informative posting in the US thread, so just to hit on a few of the things he brought up:
 

On 13.9.2017 at 06:36, shimodahito said:

So I suspect in the database, the father's name may not be known for many of the newer, or lower ranked Mongolians.  Researching to find what the initial stands for will be a challenge.

That's not a major issue as nearly all the Mongolian rikishi (except the original Oshima Six) were recruited during the "internet era", so we and the Sumo DB have the full name data as provided by the Kyokai - which uses the patronymics as substitute for surnames. The Oshima Six also have patronymics listed on the DB, but verifying their correctness may be more difficult. (For the three who quit early, anyway, probably not for Kyokushuzan/Kyokutenho/Kyokutenzan.)

So, other than orthographical issues the main task likely will be to figure out which part actually is the patronymic and which is the personal name, because that's where the Kyokai has produced a lot of confusion over the years, leading to many names that are in the wrong order in the DB.
 

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To demonstrate the use of initials only, here are the Mongolian results of the Haru Basho [2014] after Day 11 from a Mongolian newspaper.

That's a nice find, the kind of which I was hoping to uncover. Thanks!
 

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Using Hakuho, in the database, I see his father's given name, MÖNKHBAT (МӨНХБАТ), is capitalized as the surname (which probably matches his passport).  First, to standardize the data base, I recommend deciding if you will use the rikishi's given name, or the father's given name as the capitalized surname.

Yes, it's the patronymic that's supposed to be capitalized in the DB entries.
 

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Second, never use katakana spellings to figure out the English spelling of Mongolians.  It rarely works.  The key is to find the Mongolian Cyrillic spelling of the name first.

  • Third, be consistent with the written translation from the Mongolian Cyrillic alphabet to English latin/roman alphabet.  Use Mongolian Cyrillic, not Russian as the Mongolians added a few extra letters.  The translation is fairly simple for the consonants, but tricky for the vowels as there are a few translating variants used -- and a few similar sounding vowels in Mongolian.    There is an official "Mongolian Cyrillic latinization standard", which the database should probably adapt, and I'll use as I get into this project.

If you have any links for the official standard, I'd appreciate it. I think the Kyokai has been reasonably consistent in their romanizations of the Mongolian names, at least for the last several years, but I don't know if their "house standard" is actually a proper or useful one. However, for practical purposes it might be best to stay somewhat close to what the Kyokai uses anyway (and just fix up inconsistent usage), so as not to burden Doitsuyama too much. I guess it depends on how significant the differences would be.

 

Edited by Asashosakari

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shimodahito    131

II'm adding my original thread (with additional comments) and going to delete my post in the "yank" thread.
MONGOLIANS:
I can help on this one, but it might need to wait as an "in-between-basho-project".   Some key points:

  • Mongolians tend to stick with one name.  Dorj (Дорж) is Dorj.  But if you need to distinguish which Dorj you're writing about, add the first initial of the father's (or sometimes mother's) given name in front of it.  So in print, if Dorj's father's given name is Tommy, you'll see T.Dorj (Т.Дорж) it is rare to see the full spelling of father's given name in print, and certainly never used in conversation, or in a Mongolian sumo broadcast.  The literal translation would be "Dorj of Tommy" So I suspect in the database, the father's name may not be known for many of the newer, or lower ranked Mongolians.  Researching to find what the initial stands for will be a challenge.  [see Asashosakari's comment] By the way, sometimes a Mongolian may chose not to use their father or mother's initial.  They can pick an uncle or someone else who raised them, or even go with "N" for Нэргүй (Nergui) which literally means "no name."   N.Dorj = "Dorj of No Name"
    • To demonstrate the use of initials only, here are the Mongolian results of the Haru Basho after Day 11 from a Mongolian newspaper.  The first line (Hakuho) is translated to understand the format.

 

Ё Хакүхо М.Даваажаргал 11-0     { Yo Hakuho M.Davaajargal 11-0 }
Ё Харүмафүжи Д.Баямбадорж 11-0
О Какүрюү М.Ананд 10-1
М1 Тамаваши Мөнх-Оргил 3-8
М8 Кёкүтэнхо Н.Цэвэгням 7-4
М10 Тэрүнофүжи Г.Ган-эрдэнэ 4-7
М14 Азүмарюү С.Тодбилэг 5-6
М15 Таканоива А.Баасандорж 8-3
М16 Кагамио Б.Нанжид 4-7

Жюүрёо
Ж1 Кёкүшюүхо Т.Эрдэнэбаатар 4-7 
Ж3 Токитэнкү А. Хүчитбаатар 8-3
Ж3 Асасэкирюү Б. Дашням 5-6
Ж4 Шёотэнро Д.Нямсүрэн 4-7
Ж8 Араваши Э.Дөлгөөн 7-4
Ж10 Сэйро А.Өнөболд 6-5
Макүшита 
М1 Сакигакэ Я.Баттүшиг 4-2
М3 Ичиножо А.Ичинноров 5-1
М9 Сэншёо Э.Баярбат 3-3
М14 Гочёозан Д.Ууганбаатар 3-2
М18 Чиёошома Г.Мөнхсайхан 4-2
М19 Ониараши Ө.Өлзийжаргал 2-3
М38 Рюүонами Б.Буянжаргал 4-2
М44 Дайшёохо Ч.Шижирбаяр 4-2
Санданмэ 
С8 Аратоши В.Цэрэндорж 3-2
С14 Тайга С.Шаравнямбуу 3-2
С30 Дайонами Б.Ууганбаяр 2-4
С42 Такакасүга Э.Энхманлай 6-0

  • I agree with Ryoshishokunin that it might be a good idea to add the Cyrillic spelling to the data base... this might be a good idea for all non-roman alphabet origin names (Arabic, Chinese, Ukrainian Cyrillic, Korean (Hangul), etc.) 
  • So if Dorj has a son named Billy, which is the surname?  In Mongolian he would only be known as Billy, or in print D.Billy "Billy of Dorj" ... (Note there is no longer a "T" reference to Dorj's father, Tommy.  It drops).  Since Mongolians go by one name, properly, BILLY would be the surname (and given name) and as used as such on a driver's license, school diploma, property documents, marriage certificate, etc would appear Dorjin BILLY.  In conversation Mister Billy or Doctor Billy would be appropriate, but you would never refer to him as Mr/Dr Dorj.  However, I've seen many Mongolians aim to accommodate to Western protocols and start using the fathers name as the surname ~ especially passport-carrying Mongolians who travel abroad.  This has added to the confusion.   Hakuho is Davaadorj, or M.Davaadorj in print, or Mr Davaadorj.  however....
  • Using Hakuho, in the database, I see his father's given name, MÖNKHBAT (МӨНХБАТ), is capitalized as the surname (which probably matches his passport).  First, to standardize the data base, I recommend deciding if you will use the rikishi's given name, or the father's given name as the capitalized surname.  Since it appears most in the database follow Hakuho's pattern, keep to that.  [Asashosakari confirmed this to be the database format] But better might be to just use the initial as the Mongolians do in Mongolia. So never address Hakuho as Mr MÖNKHBAT, because that's his father's name!
  • Second, never use katakana spellings to figure out the English spelling of Mongolians.  It rarely works.  The key is to find the Mongolian Cyrillic spelling of the name first.
  • Third, be consistent with the written translation from the Mongolian Cyrillic alphabet to English latin/roman alphabet.  Use Mongolian Cyrillic, not Russian as the Mongolians added a few extra letters.  The translation is fairly simple for the consonants, but tricky for the vowels as there are a few translating variants used -- and a few similar sounding vowels in Mongolian.    There is an official "Mongolian Cyrillic latinization standard", which the database should probably adapt, and I'll use as I get into this project.  [A quick scan indicates most of the Mongolians use the standard in the database - - the chart is here: http://news.gogo.mn/r/101115 ] but I may post with English column headings later.  Consistency ensures we don't end up with various spellings as you often see with Mongolia's capitol city Улаанбаатар.  We get Ulan Bator, Olān Bātar, Ulanbator, Ölan Batar, and the correct Ulaanbaatar.  

When I have time, I'll go through the current banzuke roster of Mongolians and cross check the English spellings; then start on the retired Mongolian sumotori.  If there's also a need to standardize or verify the katakana spellings, I'm not sure I'll be of much assistance.  

-shimodahtio

  • Thanks 1

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