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Basho Talk - Aki 2017 (SPOILERS)

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1 hour ago, Chijanofuji said:

The lowest ranked winner of the Makuuchi yusho was Dewaminato who won the Haru 1939 yusho while ranked at Maegashira 17 with a 13-0 zenso yusho.

Needless to say that record cannot be broken... ;-)

 

Well, if we're ever left with 3 Y/O the banzuke will go down to M18e. Highly unlikely of course, and even more unlikely that there will be a yusho from anyone ranked that low (although with only 3 Y/O the odds are ever so slightly shorter). But it's on the big theoretical table.

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2 hours ago, Morty said:

You can only beat the opponent they put in front of you and if your opponent doesn't fight it ain't your fault.

 

 

Completely true. I'm probably still just pissed off that my favorites either sat out, or should have. I suspect the Geek may take it all this time for a 2nd championship, but there are a few others with viable paths to their first yusho. I like the way Onosho is wrestling, but am dubious he can take down as many sanyaku as will be necessary. We shall see.

On the Geek's kinboshi, though, should it have been a matta?

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11 minutes ago, Thundersnow said:

 

On the Geek's kinboshi, though, should it have been a matta?

My thought is that it should have been as he didn't get his hands down, but if the gyoji didn't call it (which he obviously didn't) Harumafuji should have been ready to continue.

How weird could this basho end up being? First kinboshi for Bumpy this late in his career and he could very well take the yusho. I still see it as being pretty wide open.

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3 hours ago, McBugger said:

Well, if we're ever left with 3 Y/O the banzuke will go down to M18e. Highly unlikely of course, and even more unlikely that there will be a yusho from anyone ranked that low (although with only 3 Y/O the odds are ever so slightly shorter). But it's on the big theoretical table.

Why 3? I thought 2 Ozeki was all that had to be shown (be that Ozeki or Yokozuna-Ozeki) or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

Still leaves lowest rank as M18 mind you...

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5 hours ago, Morty said:

About four years ago in one of the start of year polls I picked that Chiyotairyu would be a yusho winner that year. That was when he was on his way up and looked super genki. It obviously didn't happen and since then I have been disappointed (continually). But I'm calling it now - this is the one where he wins one. He is capable of unbeatable sumo on his day and so far, he has been unbeatable. Back on the bandwagon.

Indeed but the problem is that he loses to "anyone" when he does his worse sumo. He is not one trick pony as such but he has no chance against ozeki, sanyaku or high maegashira level rikishi when his initial attack fails and it often does no matter how good physical shape he is in.Hence his chance to get 12 wins or more is miniscule in my opinion. He is not less skilled Chiyotaikai.

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3 hours ago, Thundersnow said:

On the Geek's kinboshi, though, should it have been a matta?

The japanese commentators were saying that since Harumafuji had both of his hands fully touching the ground and did a valid tachiai, it could not have been a matta from his side. As for Kotoshogiku, I suppose since he went along with the flow there was no reason to give him a matta either. So yeah, a weird bout but Kotoshogiku's decision paid off.

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As a Harumafuji superfan, I was disappointed with the result of his bout on Day 3.  But I will be the first to admit he deserved the result that he got.  There are a significant number of tournament bouts where wrestlers pull up and stop trying as though they were doing keiko practice.  I view Harumafuji's bout versus Kotoshogiku as an example.  But one would expect that a Yokozuna would know better, and fight no matter what.

It was obvious that both wrestlers failed to drop their hands on the ring before the tach-ai, but that being said, Harumafuji led the charge and came up too high.  I think that more than anything made him try to stop the bout on the basis of a matta.  He even tried to "do a Hakuho" by raising his hand to get the referee's attention, all to no avail.  

To be fair, however, the JSA and shimpan have long been campaigning to ensure that wrestlers abide by the rule of dropping both hands before the initial charge.  So when they themselves don't enforce the rule, it seems hypocritical.

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Word is that Ura's injury is ACL after all. T.T

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3 hours ago, Shatsume said:

Why 3? I thought 2 Ozeki was all that had to be shown (be that Ozeki or Yokozuna-Ozeki) or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

Still leaves lowest rank as M18 mind you...

 

I'm sorry, I'm just bad at explaining things. Fatal flaw. All I meant is, for there to be a hiramaku rank as low as 18 East, which could beat Dewaminato's record yusho rank of M17w, and supposing only 2 komusubi and 2 sekiwake, the largest possible tally of banzuke-listed rikishi ranked at yokozuna or ozeki is 3, be it 3Y, 2Y+1O, 1Y+2O or 3O.

There's 42 makuuchi rikishi in every banzuke. We want there to be a rikishi at M18e. That means we need 17 full maegashira pairs plus one more guy. So that's 35. Add 2 komusubi and 2 sekiwake, that's 39 of the 42 rikishi already accounted for. So that leaves us with a maximum of 3 Y/O.

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By the way I think Tamawashi is still persisting with his tachiai BS-ery. Anyone notice that little pump fake he pulled on day 3?

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2 hours ago, dingo said:

The japanese commentators were saying that since Harumafuji had both of his hands fully touching the ground and did a valid tachiai, it could not have been a matta from his side.

Wait, I don't really understand that. If your hands are properly touching the ground, but your opponent isn't ready yet, and you lunge forward, surely that's a matta and it's your fault? Are they saying it's the other guy's fault in that case? That seems exactly the wrong way around.

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6 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

Wait, I don't really understand that. If your hands are properly touching the ground, but your opponent isn't ready yet, and you lunge forward, surely that's a matta and it's your fault? Are they saying it's the other guy's fault in that case? That seems exactly the wrong way around.

From what I understand, they're saying that Harumafuji initiated the tachiai with both hands down, so he was clearly ready. Now Kotoshougiku did a good tachiai so he was obviously OK with it, as was, apparently, the gyoji. At this stage Harumafuji can't ask for a matta because he was the one initiating the tachiai in the first place.

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Definitely pulling for Kotoshogiku to get his KK and perhaps even 10 wins with the light banzuke this time around, but yusho contender seems highly unlikely. He's only had 1 strong win of his first 3 matches and his knees and balance fail him too often to have the consistency to put up a 13-2 or 12-3 that might get into a playoff.

Glad to see Mitakeumi bounce back. I thought he was too aggressive on day 2 trying to overcompensate for his day 1 loss. Today he stayed aggressive, but in control.

I still think Harumafuji will win this basho at 13-2, but this definitely threw a wrench into those plans.

 

It only gets more interesting from here! Onosho to face Terunofuji who showed great strength today. And Harumafuji looks to bounce back against Hokutofuji, whom he manhandled in Nagoya.

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Basically, you can't claim it should have been a matta if you're the one who jumped the gun.  You shouldn't be looking for a matta call if you jump first - you should only be stopping *if* the matta is called by the gyoji.  That it may have been a tactical matta that ended up not being a matta sounds reasonable.

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Its not like geek is totally done...in his previous 3 he went 9-6 at sekiwake and then two 7-8s in sanyaku.  I dont think it's far-fetched that hed be a contender in a field with 3 absent yokozuna, an absent ozeki, two struggling ozeki, an injured Tamawashi, an 0-3 Tochiozan, etc.

Edited by Katooshu

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2 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Its not like geek is totally done...in his previous 3 he went 9-6 at sekiwake and then two 7-8s in sanyaku.  I dont think it's far-fetched that hed be a contender in this field.

With Harumafuji out of the way, it's certainly set up for the best case scenario to happen. I think he will cap out at 10-11 wins, but would love if he stays in contention to the end. Ganbatte Geek!

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A lot of YouTube comments seemingly blaming geek for not touching down, which is total nonsense. Harumafuji came out too early and didnt give him a chance to get his hands down.

Did these people actually watch it before commenting?! Maybe they just love the 'everything's so unfair!' narrative...

Edited by Katooshu
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Geek gotta beat Onosho (who looks beastly) and Hokotofuji. I'm just happy that he KK. Nothing I'd like better then seeing him with cup, but don't wanna jinx it.  Not that he hasn't been on the receiving ends of some vicious henka's, so #%#*+%  haramafuji ! 

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Aminishki at 3-0, off to a great start. If he can go 6-6 or better the rest of the way, it would be a likely promotion back to the top division. Long way to go, but how could would that be for the soon to be 39 year old. 

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8 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

To be fair, however, the JSA and shimpan have long been campaigning to ensure that wrestlers abide by the rule of dropping both hands before the initial charge.  So when they themselves don't enforce the rule, it seems hypocritical.

How is that rule interpreted ? Are judges at liberty to let the fight continue if the other wrestler "accepts" the false start because he finds himself in a favorable position, like Kotoshogiku ?

Something like a free play in football ?

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Harumafuji does have a chance to repeat history from 10 years ago. According to Nikkan, in January 2007 only four maegashira out of all of makuuchi were 3-0, Asashoryu having lost on day 3. Asashoryu however would go on to win the yusho at 14-1. Harumafuji losing on day 3 leaves 6 maegashira at 3-0, but obviously you never know what could happen.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201709130000219.html

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6 hours ago, McBugger said:

From what I understand, they're saying that Harumafuji initiated the tachiai with both hands down, so he was clearly ready. Now Kotoshougiku did a good tachiai so he was obviously OK with it, as was, apparently, the gyoji. At this stage Harumafuji can't ask for a matta because he was the one initiating the tachiai in the first place.

Exactly. 

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