Fukurou

Rikishi Status Aki 2017 - Day 15 no changes

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22 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

I think it was in an interview of Charles Poliquin where I heard the connective tissue has a metabolic rate seven times slower than that of muscle tissue. So if a muscle was injured and required two weeks rest to heal, it would take tendons and ligaments 14 weeks for example. If that is correct, it seems to not be commonly understood by the doctors examining rikishi.

I was just reading literature trying to verify this information, and the reasons given for it are hypocellularity and hypovascularity.  That is, there is less than the normal number of cells and blood vessels per unit volume.  I haven't found anyone who cited that specific rate, and someone on a gymnastics forum said their coach told them the ratio was 10:1, but it's clear from the ways the literature talks about treatment of connective tissue injuries that they are notoriously slow to repair themselves for the above reasons.

"Generally, ligaments and tendons are metabolically active with incessant cell renewal and matrix turnover albeit at a relatively slow rate. Therefore, after injury, ligaments and tendons heal at a slower rate than most other soft tissue because of their hypovasculariy as well as hypocellularity "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879239/

 

Edited by Gurowake
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47 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

I think Terunofuji badly needs to retool his tachiai. Frequently giving up morozashi was no big deal back when he could just rely on his size and brute power to get out of disadvantageous positions, but with his knees as a weak link he can no longer resort to that, as it will only result in what happened this basho with a reinjury. 

I swear he didn't do that like a year and a half ago. It is really frustrating to watch though.

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5 hours ago, Gurowake said:

 

"Generally, ligaments and tendons are metabolically active with incessant cell renewal and matrix turnover albeit at a relatively slow rate. Therefore, after injury, ligaments and tendons heal at a slower rate than most other soft tissue because of their hypovasculariy as well as hypocellularity "

That might have been one of the reasons why my broken off/reattached supraspinatus tendon took five years (!) to get back to full functionality. Apart from the injury itself, there is the internal scar tissue that needs time too. And any trauma that disrupts the normal regenerative process also runs the risk of cells running wild, as a friend of mine discovered when he got cancer in his healed wrist. The body is a marvellous evolutionary construct, tampering with it needs to be done with care. No wonder that medicine is conservative and traditions are difficult to change. Sumo has had a very long tradition of coping with injuries. Modern medicine knowing better is only a very recent phenomenon in comparison.

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Day 8

M2w AOIYAMA (absent from day 1) returns.

Pointing out the obvious - although this is a normal part of a basho, as we enter the 2nd half of the basho we are likely to see more rikishi returning than withdrawing from this point on.

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With M2w Aoiyama's return, the joi is now M6e Ichinojo and above.

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13 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

I think the reason he has been trying so hard while still injured is that he knows once he loses the rank he will not be getting it back. Even if he did miraculously heal completely, shake off many months of ring rust and lack of conditioning, and work his way back to an ozeki run, he may find himself in the same situation as Miyabiyama did where the NSK just doesn't feel he has the potential to again carry out the expectations of an ozeki and deny him promotion. He will be irrevocably tarred with the same brush as Tochinoshin, as one who did not gambarize and outwork the injury through sheer determination and effort. Sensible has nothing to do with it. I kid you not.

Do you think the NSK would deny him repromotion were he to come back convincingly and get let's say 35 wins over three basho? I find it hard to believe. 

All this is hypothetical of course, Terunofuji is doomed to hobble on his injured legs until it gets so bad that he has to quit. See also: Baruto. 

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Meniscus injuries in particular take forever to heal, even with surgery. I've had a couple of friends with torn meniscuses (menisci?) and they just never get better by themselves. Two weeks is laughable.

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46 minutes ago, dingo said:

Do you think the NSK would deny him repromotion were he to come back convincingly and get let's say 35 wins over three basho? I find it hard to believe. 

All this is hypothetical of course, Terunofuji is doomed to hobble on his injured legs until it gets so bad that he has to quit. See also: Baruto. 

I agree on both points.  Miyabiyama didn't have particularly strong Ozeki runs after his promotion, even if it would have normally been enough.  If Terunofuji showed Yokozuna-like scores consistently that he has when he's healthy, he'd make it back to Ozeki.  But it also looks like he's doomed to repeat what happened to Baruto.

Edited by Gurowake

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49 minutes ago, dingo said:

Do you think the NSK would deny him repromotion were he to come back convincingly and get let's say 35 wins over three basho? I find it hard to believe.

Same here. Likening a (hypothetical) full-strength Terunofuji to Miyabiyama seems pretty off. Miyabiyama had nothing ozeki worthy in his career except for the three basho that originally saw him promoted and that fluky late-career 14-1. Zero other records of even 11 wins in the joi, let alone anything resembling yusho contention up there. A recovered Terunofuji could well be asked to prove himself a bit more than a regular ozeki promotee - they said as much about his tsuna chances earlier this year. But I'd be shocked if something along the lines of Baruto's ozeki run numbers (12-9-12-14) would be denied for a rikishi in that situation. A regular yusho contender is a regular yusho contender, no matter the shape of his career. And regular yusho contenders don't get parked at sekiwake.

The much bigger issue - other than Terunofuji needing to get healthy in the first place - is that he would likely need to retool his sumo to be less of an ongoing injury risk. I don't know if he'll do that. It's rare to see any rikishi reinvent himself, and especially not the guys whose style is very (or almost entirely) strength-based.

 

Edited by Asashosakari

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Yes, if he put up yokozuna-like numbers it's highly likely that he would be repromoted. But I do contend that it would take that sort of performance to secure it. 35 wins is probably the minimum he could expect to need to be emphatic enough to demand such a result from the NSK if he did take an extended break. And to have even a chance at returning to full health, he's going to need that extended break, along with something that could aid recovery like stem cell treatment. 

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It wouldn't surprise me that they use some growth stimulus medicine like hgh or other strong stuff, but even then 2 months, let alone 2 weeks isn't enough. 

A lot is made about Basho being too frequent etc, but to be honest as average weight continues to go up sumo is just going to be very injury prone. Tochinoshin did the 'right' thing and took a long vacation and again he's at a point of barely moving on the dohyo.

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Weight is one big issue, but I have a suspicion that a largely unrecognized factor is the rise of tsuki-oshi sumo (and evasive sumo as a response to it), which has made the "progression" of a sumo match much less predictable. Rikishi are asked to respond in split seconds to highly complex situations, which is hard to train for and probably creates a lot of moments where limbs (their own and their opponents') go in unanticipated directions, and avoiding injury is more down to luck than anything else. 

If most bouts still went the way a typical Terunofuji-Tochinoshin bout goes, quickly settling into an old-timey yotsu battle, which then eventually ends in a standard throw or yorikiri, I think we'd see fewer dangerous situations and fewer injuries, even at the current and still-increasing weights.

(Of course, the potential issues due to large weights go beyond just the dohyo action, so I'm not saying a return to 1970s style sumo would cure everything.)

Edited by Asashosakari
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Yeah, weight is only one factor. I actually think with the increase of weight the power-yotsu sumo becomes the most dangerous because it turns into really irresponsible weight lifting in what you call the highly complex situations. Power-yotsu rikishi try to lift straight up during those times when things aren't lined up properly and end up putting some joint in their legs out.

Its interesting that the most violent looking stuff like tsuppari and nodo-grabs are probably some of the safest even if there's some major bruising.

Anyway I'm not campaigning for any change here. Just trying to point out there's a lot of factors and reducing jungyou days or flat dohyo probably won't make as a big of an impact as some people think.

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23 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I was just reading literature trying to verify this information, and the reasons given for it are hypocellularity and hypovascularity.  That is, there is less than the normal number of cells and blood vessels per unit volume.  I haven't found anyone who cited that specific rate, and someone on a gymnastics forum said their coach told them the ratio was 10:1, but it's clear from the ways the literature talks about treatment of connective tissue injuries that they are notoriously slow to repair themselves for the above reasons.

"Generally, ligaments and tendons are metabolically active with incessant cell renewal and matrix turnover albeit at a relatively slow rate. Therefore, after injury, ligaments and tendons heal at a slower rate than most other soft tissue because of their hypovasculariy as well as hypocellularity "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879239/

 

I recently (3 months ago) damaged two extender tendons in my wrist. I thought they would get better on their own - they didn't. I have consequently had my wrist in a splint to stop any movement for the last six weeks. I am now allowed to take it off for a few minutes each day to do a bit of minor exercise to keep my muscles from atrophying completely, but my OT says it will be about a 3 months process of gradually wearing the splint less and less and strengthening my wrist back up. By comparison if it had been a broken bone it would be completely healed by now. Damaged tendons take time to heal

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Terunofuji has finally and firmly stated he is not returning this basho and is determined to come back next basho in the best condition he can. "He will not be returning. He still can't walk. All he can do is gambarize next basho," said Isegahama Oyakata. He is the 17th Ozeki (20th time altogether) to lose his rank since 1969 when the "current system" was put into place.

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Day 9

Sd1w MASUTOO (1-3)

Jd46w ZENDAISHO (2-2)

Jk17e DAISHIRYU (1-3)

are all withdrawing. What was that I said about rikishi coming back?

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24 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Day 9

Sd1w MASUTOO (1-3)

withdrawing. What was that I said about rikishi coming back?

Can't be good for the veteran Targarian Hungarian.

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On 9/15/2017 at 16:27, Asashosakari said:

No way. He'll be in juryo by March if he doesn't compete (Kyushu S -> Hatsu ~M8).

I concur, I wasn't accounting right. 

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On 2017. 09. 17. at 14:48, Kintamayama said:

Can't be good for the veteran Targarian Hungarian.

Yes, I'm his fellow countryman, and I'm pretty sad about this bit of news... The worst thing is that I don't have any more knowledge about the reason of him going kyujo... After his first win of the basho... And on top of that, I couldn't watch any of his bouts as he was demoted to Sandanme... :( 
Does anybody have any news on him?

Edit: Actually according to sumodb he didn't appear on his Day 7 bout against Obamaumi (how fun name - can you imagine Trumpamayama?). Why is the difference?

Edited by Wakaebala

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On 16.9.2017 at 21:22, Asashosakari said:

Same here. Likening a (hypothetical) full-strength Terunofuji to Miyabiyama seems pretty off. Miyabiyama had nothing ozeki worthy in his career except for the three basho that originally saw him promoted and that fluky late-career 14-1. Zero other records of even 11 wins in the joi, let alone anything resembling yusho contention up there. A recovered Terunofuji could well be asked to prove himself a bit more than a regular ozeki promotee - they said as much about his tsuna chances earlier this year. But I'd be shocked if something along the lines of Baruto's ozeki run numbers (12-9-12-14) would be denied for a rikishi in that situation. A regular yusho contender is a regular yusho contender, no matter the shape of his career. And regular yusho contenders don't get parked at sekiwake.

The much bigger issue - other than Terunofuji needing to get healthy in the first place - is that he would likely need to retool his sumo to be less of an ongoing injury risk. I don't know if he'll do that. It's rare to see any rikishi reinvent himself, and especially not the guys whose style is very (or almost entirely) strength-based.

 

The injury proneness is quite clear in Terunofuji and I agree with Asashosakari that he will be forever in problems with his tendency to get injured. His sumo doesn't looks especially  injury prone either so it is very difficult.

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Former Juryo Higonojo has a fractured bone in his hand. Further down the ranks his stablemate Fukuda pulled a calf muscle in his right leg in keiko just before the basho, leading to his Shonichi fusenpai.

And while linking videos I've seen a couple of other injuries. Veteran Dairaido seemed to pull a hamstring after an awkward splits at the end of his last bout, unfortunately.

Tsuyasato's right knee buckled when Ezuka tried a susoharai footsweep in their their bout back on Day 2.

Edited by Yubinhaad
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Day 11

All departing this basho:

Ms26e SOTAIRYU (1-4)

Sd25w HAMAEIKO (3-2)
Sd64e HAMAMINATO (3-2)

Jd25e UMIWATARI (0-5)

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At 35, Sotairyu is probably in the market for an available chanko restaurant.

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