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Yamasanzan

Sumo graphs

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Tsuchinoninjin    237

This is a good visualization start. I actually thought about making something for my own use similar to this for a while but never to host it on a server.

My three points of feedback is this:

1. The number of rikishi in each division is not always the same. sumodb has reliable stats for recent years here: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Basho.aspx (more older years is just the records available at sumodb instead of the actual number of rikishi) So, the color divisions will change from year to year.

2. I think typically the sekitori ranks are more interest for everyone, so that each rank step for Juryo and Makuuchi should be much further on the Y axis than the lower ranks. This combined with the changing number of Ozeki and Yokozuna will make a more interesting graph I think.

3. Historical rikishi are important to everyone. I actually wanted to make the same plot originally for Kyokutenho vs Wakanosato since their career timing matched very closely.

Edit: Sorry I just saw that old banzuke may be selected to display different rikishi. 

Edited by Tsuchinoninjin

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Gurowake    1,495

I agree that more emphasis needs to be placed on the sekitori ranks.  The lower divisions should take up maybe 1/3 of the vertical area, juryo 1/6, maegashira 1/3, sanyaku the remaining 1/6, just as a guess for something that would be most informative in general.  The real goal would be to have dynamic vertical scaling based on what the data is, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

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Yamasanzan    82

I agree that I should do something to show the total number of rikishi in each basho. (almost 1000 in the 90th, 676 now).


I also agree that the sekitori ranks are the most interesting, but I made the emphasis equal over all divisions for 2 main reasons.

1. I want the graphs to show some sort of reality between how many rikishi is in the respective division (Compare the Mercator map projection, which makes many people think northen and sothern countries are bigger than they really are). The graphs are zoomable so to emphasize makuuchi you can just zoom in there.

2. I usually go to Japan about once a year to see a basho. I like to go early and watch the lower divisions. But I noticed that I don't really know much about the lower ranked rikishi. I can of course get info from Sumo reference and other sites, but I wanted to be able to compare rikishi easily on one webpage with just one click (That's when I thought about making a site like this, 3 years ago). So the page is for comparing rikishi of any rank equally.

So, besides from choosing rikishi form the banzuke to plot, I want to make it so that during a basho you can choose a matchup and see the 2 rikishi plotted.

Also:
Bilingual would be good
Add some css to make the site prettier
Not tested on touch screen, but Reset button might be too close and pressed on accident.
As of now, data goes back to 1997 (I wanted to fit Aminishiki in), but it is not a priority right now to go further back, emphasis is on current rikishi.

PS. I'm just a mediocre hobby programmer so updating might take some time.

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orandashoho    415

Looks like a nice graph. I'm not sure about sliding scales; I think it is actually useful to see how small that pinnacle really is compared to the whole. I agree with you here.

13 hours ago, Yamasanzan said:

. I want the graphs to show some sort of reality between how many rikishi is in the respective division (Compare the Mercator map projection, which makes many people think northen and sothern countries are bigger than they really are). The graphs are zoomable so to emphasize makuuchi you can just zoom in there.

A multi-rikishi plot would be interesting.
Thanks for sharing!

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Tsuchinoninjin    237

It isn't only about whether certain divisions are more/less important. The same W/L ratio in sandanme is going to cause a much larger jump in rank than in makuuchi. If you look at absolute wins, then the difference is even more severe. So without scaling, lower divisions are going to look a lot 'noisier' and change in sekitori rank is going to be nearly imperceptible. Sure zooming is possible but looking at a sekitori whole career at once is going to give this perception.

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Asashosakari    9,475
3 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

It isn't only about whether certain divisions are more/less important. The same W/L ratio in sandanme is going to cause a much larger jump in rank than in makuuchi. If you look at absolute wins, then the difference is even more severe. So without scaling, lower divisions are going to look a lot 'noisier' and change in sekitori rank is going to be nearly imperceptible. Sure zooming is possible but looking at a sekitori whole career at once is going to give this perception.

And also pertaining to the bolded part - the skill difference per rank is a lot smaller in the lower divisions. Moving up from Jonidan 50 to Jonidan 25 (490th -> 440th position) requires a lot less improvement in skill than moving up from Ms60 to Ms35 (190th -> 140th), let alone moving up from J14 to M5 (70th -> ~20th). Which is of course a major reason that they do larger banzuke movements further down the rankings. Having all banzuke ranks spaced equally exaggerates both the importance and the difficulty of a rikishi's movements through the lower/lowest divisions.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Yamasanzan    82

Any concrete suggestions, other than Gurowakes, on how to scale the Y-axis?

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Gurowake    1,495

In line with what Asashosakari mentioned, you could have a logarithmic scale of some sort, where you have ten steps, and each step represents half way up from the previous level to the top of the banzuke.  You could do it linearly within the steps, or you could keep the log scale in between as well.

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Yamanashi    84
On 8/9/2017 at 17:12, Yamasanzan said:

I made a site to compare rikishi graphically (not pretty but working, so I put it online,suggestions?)
http://sumo.danikaru.se/graph.php
 

Holy mackerel!  I was doing the same thing; even thinking about how to count the number in Sandanme.  I noticed that most rikishi have a rapid rise to their natural level, then a long tail heading down to intai.  I also saw two phenomena that made me think about this graph in the first place:

1) Injuries show up as a big cliff; then the graph follows that "inverted decay" curve until the next injury.

 

2) The rikishi that alternate 3-4 and 4-3 every basho have a graph that looks like chain stitching :-S

 

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Benihana    500

It would be interesting to mix active and inactive sumotori.

Edited by Benihana

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VirtualSumo    2

This is brilliant - thank you so much!  I'm in the final stages of revising a on line virutal sumo game and wanted to do more research about ages and career progression and this tool is wonderful.

In terms of other feedback I agree with the gist of some other comments that a magnification of progress in the top ranks would be helpful.  Another thing I'd find very interesting but that would require alot of research I fear, would be a graph of a rikishi's weight corresponding to their ranking.  

Brilliant work!

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Oshirokita    18
On ‎2017‎-‎08‎-‎09 at 14:12, Yamasanzan said:

I made a site to compare rikishi graphically (not pretty but working, so I put it online,suggestions?)
http://sumo.danikaru.se/graph.php
 

Wow, really nice. I do a similar thing for the top division rikishi tracking from Makushita to present, but you have more detail and nicer cosmetics! I would echo the wish to see it scaled to focus more on Makuuchi, maybe isolate emphasis for sanyaku and above also. Very good graph!

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Yamanashi    84
On 8/9/2017 at 17:12, Yamasanzan said:

I made a site to compare rikishi graphically (not pretty but working, so I put it online,suggestions?)
http://sumo.danikaru.se/graph.php
 

Again, my congratulations on your achievement.  It seems to me that the way the graph looks (y-axis: linear or log? etc.) depends on what you're trying to display. 

I got to thinking about plotting this info after seeing individual rikishi in the Sumo DB go up and down like a yo-yo for years and years.  For many, there was a natural ranking for them at their prime: get a little over your natural rank and you get slapped down, get sent down below your rank and you rise back up to that natural level.  Making a plot of rank vs. basho shows that.  It also makes me feel ... admiration? sadness? when I see some guy hit that peak and then slide down the hill for another six or eight or ten years.

The other example was the career of Takamiyama, who spent forever in makuuchi going up and down the list.  A plot of (change in rank) vs rank looks like a force graph for a spring, with his natural equilibrium at about M3.

As far as suggestions, you should be aware that (at least for makuuchi through sandanme) the number of wrestlers in each division have been pretty constant over the last twenty years, but that's not true if you go back earlier (and there were almost 150 in jonokuchi in the 90's).  That makes it very difficult to even compare ranks from decade to decade at the lower levels.

Personally, I would keep a linear scale on the y-axis.  The problem with the path from juryo to maegashira to sekiwake is not that it's logarithmic, it's that it's not continuous.  Once at Ozeki, does the graph of Kaio or Kotooshu have any informative content?  And at Yokozuna, the graph will be pretty much flat until retirement, irrespective of how dai- the Yokozuna was.

Well, this is pretty scattershot, but I wanted to put my say in while you still have the energy to keep tinkering with it.  I think you have created an important tool.  Maybe if someday Ozumo gets a version of Billy Bean, he'll cite your graphs as an inspiration:-).

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