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Basho Talk - Nagoya 2017 (SPOILERS)

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After "every yokozuna should be winning at least 10 yusho or he doesn't deserve the rank", I think we're seeing the development of the next urban legend in the minds of fans who weren't around for / haven't looked at any yokozuna careers before Asashoryu and Hakuho. No, Kisenosato isn't in any sort of "danger zone" just because he's had a couple of injury-marred tournaments less than a year into his yokozuna stint. Kakuryu might be, but that's because he's been up there for over three years now and he hasn't had enough success to secure himself as much goodwill as a better yokozuna would. And even so, it's only been his own shisho who has hinted at retirement.

I can already see it now: Kakuryu takes Aki off, returns in Kyushu, scores 9 or 10 wins, loads of fans think that the YDC will demand his head because he still "sucks", and are entirely nonplussed when the committee instead expresses their gratitude for his return to competition and their hope that he'll have less ring rust in January. Seriously, look at how much leeway other yokozuna have received in the past. This isn't reality TV, and there's nobody itching to tell competitors that they're outta here just because it makes for good entertainment. Sure, if it looks like Kakuryu has recovered well after taking time off, and he still totally bombs against his early maegashira opponents in his return basho, he might well decide to retire (without anybody prompting him). But as long as he has any sort of halfway respectable performance, he'll be getting more chances.

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3 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

After "every yokozuna should be winning at least 10 yusho or he doesn't deserve the rank", I think we're seeing the development of the next urban legend in the minds of fans who weren't around for / haven't looked at any yokozuna careers before Asashoryu and Hakuho. No, Kisenosato isn't in any sort of "danger zone" just because he's had a couple of injury-marred tournaments less than a year into his yokozuna stint. Kakuryu might be, but that's because he's been up there for over three years now and he hasn't had enough success to secure himself as much goodwill as a better yokozuna would. And even so, it's only been his own shisho who has hinted at retirement.

I can already see it now: Kakuryu takes Aki off, returns in Kyushu, scores 9 or 10 wins, loads of fans think that the YDC will demand his head because he still "sucks", and are entirely nonplussed when the committee instead expresses their gratitude for his return to competition and their hope that he'll have less ring rust in January. Seriously, look at how much leeway other yokozuna have received in the past. This isn't reality TV, and there's nobody itching to tell competitors that they're outta here just because it makes for good entertainment. Sure, if it looks like Kakuryu has recovered well after taking time off, and he still totally bombs against his early maegashira opponents in his return basho, he might well decide to retire (without anybody prompting him). But as long as he has any sort of halfway respectable performance, he'll be getting more chances.

Exactly.

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On 7/14/2017 at 22:07, Bumpkin said:

Day 8: Y1e Hakuho v M4e Ura.

Day 9: Y1w Harumafuji v M4e Ura.

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On 7/14/2017 at 19:44, ALAKTORN said:

Am I the only one who dislikes Takayasu’s kachiage? He’s been using it a lot.

Nah, I think he does it properly.  Oosunaarashi, and sometimes Hakuho, use theirs like a sucker punch.  Takayasu comes from below and uses it to blow up any chance of his opponent reaching the belt, then starts blasting away with the oshi attack.  

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Two intra-sanyaku matches scheduled for Day 9 instead of my previously predicted one.  This suggests they have decided to not care about getting 3 such matches in on Day 15 since they couldn't get them to be with the top 6-ranked rikishi (as noted, it would have had to include Kotoshogiku).  So we should see O v O in the "musubi-no-niban" (結びの二番 - I'm totally making that term up on my own; I have no idea whether anyone actually uses it this way) on senshuraku, and the soroibumi will also include whichever maegashira happens to be Tamawashi's opponent.  The latter bit is interesting in that I asked as a newbie if any maegashira ever end up in the soroibumi, and someone mentioned that Tamawashi recently did (before he ever made sanyaku).

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What puzzles me more is M8e Aoiyama (7-0) vs. M11e Chiyonokuni (2-5) instead of M10e Chiyotairyu (5-2).

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It's been a while since I've enjoyed a basho as much as I have this one. You have to figure Ura's going to get "the business" tomorrow, as Hakuho will be looking to establish dominance. Would love to see Ura pull this off, but he has only a nominal chance. He's lucky Hakuho's in a good mood.

Pleased to see Tochinoshin looking composed and focused, along with Takayasu and Mitakeumi. Hoping Yoshikaze can rebound.

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Well the youngbloods couldn't down the yokozuna, but they both did provide for some entertaining sumo.

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Damm Kagayaki the belt...the belt...go for the belt !  Both boys looked pretty good today though. They switch Yokozuna tomorrow. 

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9 hours ago, Seijakuzan said:

Oosunaarashi, and sometimes Hakuho, use theirs like a sucker punch.

Spoiler

 

 

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M4e Ura and M4w Kagayaki should face O1w Goeido and O2e Takayasu on Days 10 and 11. M5e Chiyoshoma should face Y1e Hakuho and Y1w Harumafuji on Days 10 and 11. If this happens than the top 4 will have faced the same opponents. Day 12 is also available for these match-ups.

Edited by Bumpkin
Day 12.

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5 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

M4e Ura and M4w Kagayaki should face O1w Goeido and O2e Takayasu on Days 10 and 11. M5e Chiyoshoma should face Y1e Hakuho and Y1w Harumafuji on Days 10 and 11. If this happens than the top 4 will have faced the same opponents.

And Hakuhou is going to win this handily ... Zensho perhaps . But the boys are going to face all the top guns, better now then later IMHO. 

Edited by Philioyamfugi

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17 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

M4e Ura and M4w Kagayaki should face O1w Goeido and O2e Takayasu on Days 10 and 11. M5e Chiyoshoma should face Y1e Hakuho and Y1w Harumafuji on Days 10 and 11. If this happens than the top 4 will have faced the same opponents.

I doubt that, there are intra-sanyaku matches to take care of and that proposed schedule would require Hakuho to face opponents out of order. The most straight-forward schedule at this point is probably:

15: Y1e-Y1w  O1w-O2e
14: Y1e-O1w  Y1w-O2e
13: Y1e-O2e  Y1w-O1w
12: Y1e-Se   Y1w-Sw
11: Y1e-Sw   Y1w-Se
10: O1w-Kw   O2e-Se

with the two yokozuna not facing the same maegashira opponent. If they do want to use the same guy, they can switch Y1w-Se and O2e-Se to make room for it on Day 11, or less likely Y1w-Sw with O1w-Kw to make room on Day 12.

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Love Mitakeumi, my favorite since picking up the sport, but today shows he still has more to learn and develop. Takekeisho, at his very young age, is strictly a pusher thruster at this point, and he is very adept at it. Even though most matches, Mitakeumi would still win the pushing battle, there was no need for Mitakeumi to let it be  a thrust vs. thrust battle. He needed to take to the belt and use his mawashi techniques that have helped earn him kinboshi and other upset in recent basho. It almost seemed like Mitakeumi saw Takekeisho as a rising push and thruster and he wanted to rise to the challenge and show him he was a stronger pusher, and credit to Takekeisho for executing his brand of sumo to a T and pulling out the victory.

Hard to believe but we must remember this is only Mitakeumi's 15th tournament in grand sumo and he has risen so fast so quickly. A match like this should provide good experiences to build off of in his training before Aki.

Edited by Tiger Tanaka

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10 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Well the youngbloods couldn't down the yokozuna, but they both did provide for some entertaining sumo.

I agree, and what a throw by Hakuhou.  Tomorrow should be really good, too. Welcome to the big league, boys.

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1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I doubt that, there are intra-sanyaku matches to take care of and that proposed schedule would require Hakuho to face opponents out of order. The most straight-forward schedule at this point is probably:

15: Y1e-Y1w  O1w-O2e
14: Y1e-O1w  Y1w-O2e
13: Y1e-O2e  Y1w-O1w
12: Y1e-Se   Y1w-Sw
11: Y1e-Sw   Y1w-Se
10: O1w-Kw   O2e-Se

with the two yokozuna not facing the same maegashira opponent. If they do want to use the same guy, they can switch Y1w-Se and O2e-Se to make room for it on Day 11, or less likely Y1w-Sw with O1w-Kw to make room on Day 12.

I checked the database matrix. It can be done. Hakuho would face everyone in order. Harumafuji would face Tamawashi or Mitakeumi before Chiyonokuni. The last 3 days are set. It's only days 10, 11 and 12 that are in doubt.

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9 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

I checked the database matrix. It can be done. Hakuho would face everyone in order. Harumafuji would face Tamawashi or Mitakeumi before Chiyonokuni. The last 3 days are set. It's only days 10, 11 and 12 that are in doubt.

My point was that you had Day 10 Takayasu-maegashira and Day 11 Takayasu-maegashira, and we require Day 12 Hakuho-Tamawashi. Where does Takayasu-Tamawashi go in your proposed schedule? Of course the pieces can be made to fit, just not the way you suggested.

Edited by Asashosakari

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6 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

My point was that you had Day 10 Takayasu-maegashira and Day 11 Takayasu-maegashira, and we require Day 12 Hakuho-Tamawashi. Where does Takayasu-Tamawashi go in your proposed schedule? Of course the pieces can be made to fit, just not the way you suggested.

Takayasu v Tamawashi and Goeido v Kotoshogiku on either Day 10, 11 or 12. They would both face Ura and Kagayaki on the other two days. What's wrong with that schedule? Oops. I see the mistake I made earlier. All 3 days must be used. 

Edited by Bumpkin

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Sigh.

2 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

M4e Ura and M4w Kagayaki should face O1w Goeido and O2e Takayasu on Days 10 and 11. M5e Chiyoshoma should face Y1e Hakuho and Y1w Harumafuji on Days 10 and 11. If this happens than the top 4 will have faced the same opponents. Day 12 is also available for these match-ups.

 

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1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

Sigh.

 

Note to self: Never argue with Asashosakari.

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Note to self: Never argue with Asashosakari.

Oh, I argue with Asashosakari all the time. Just never where he can hear me. Or respond. I find I'm more likely to win that way. 

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21 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Oh, I argue with Asashosakari all the time. Just never where he can hear me. Or respond. I find I'm more likely to win that way. 

On the flipside, I've lost count how many arguments I've lost to myself. So it's possible. ;-)

Edited by Asashosakari
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