BASHO TALK -- Natsu 2017 -- SPOILERS

[d_golem 213]

1 hour ago, Morty said:

Chiyonokuni is the next coming of Yoshikaze. Same style, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks, no backward steps under any circumstances. In ten years I reckon we will be talking about Chiyonokuni in the same way we talk about Yoshikaze now

Puffy eyes? Beat-up visage?

[Kotogouryuu 126]

10 hours ago, sekitori said:

The problem with that thinking is that Endo was left with a knee that will never regain the strength it had before his injury. He won't be the future yokozuna that some people predicted he would be, but he still is a talented rikishi who should have been a sanyaku regular. It's too bad that he has to compete on a leg that because of poor advice from people who should know better, will never allow him to reach his full potential.

The thing is, medical opinion on knee injuries is rapidly changing. Several studies have been made recently, and it would seem that invasive surgery is often useless, and many times actually harmful. The threshold when a surgery is recommended is rising all the time.

Of course, that would sort of assume that the recovery time and methods are the same, instead of continuing to compete in a combat sport. Anyway, it isn't quite as clear cut as many people think.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Kotogouryuu

[Dapeng 232]

26 minutes ago, Kotogouryuu said:

The thing is, medical opinion on knee injuries is rapidly changing. Several studies have been made recently, and it would seem that invasive surgery is often useless, and many times actually harmful. The threshold when a surgery is recommended is rising all the time.

Of course, that would sort of assume that the recovery time and methods are the same, instead of continuing to compete in a combat sport. Anyway, it isn't quite as clear cut as many people think.

With such a severe injury, full recovery is  impossible, whatever the treatment.

[Tsubame 356]

again, no bow from Takagenji this day...

[Benihana 1,901]

3 hours ago, Rocks said:

He henkaed because he needed to and it used to work against Hokutofuji as he just blindly charges but Hokutofuji is learning and didn't fall for it. He should have won that match. Now Hokutofuji needs to learn what to do next. He won't lose to Ura much in the future.

This was already the 7th time they met and Ura leads 5-2. Again, the learning curve is working for Ura.

 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,249]

45 minutes ago, Kotogouryuu said:

The thing is, medical opinion on knee injuries is rapidly changing. Several studies have been made recently, and it would seem that invasive surgery is often useless, and many times actually harmful. The threshold when a surgery is recommended is rising all the time.

Of course, that would sort of assume that the recovery time and methods are the same, instead of continuing to compete in a combat sport. Anyway, it isn't quite as clear cut as many people think.

These studies are based off of everyday people. For example, can you get to your office and make your spreadsheet with little pain if we don't do surgery? Then yeah that's fine. But for professional athletes at the top level it is completely different. Sumo is the first sport I've watched where they would even *consider* not fixing a major ligament tear. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,249]

13 hours ago, Kuroyama said:

As the Great Philosopher said, "Baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical." That's true for any sport, not just baseball, sumo not least of all. What other sport actually has an official preparation time for combatants to attempt to psyche each other out? Would either Hakuho or Asashoryu have been as great without the supreme confidence they project backing up their superb physical abilities?

There's a lot that can go wrong in the head. With Kisenosato, it was probably jitters; a lack of the kind of confidence the dai-yokozuna possess which he could have justifiably seized upon a long time ago given his ability. With Endo, @Rocks was proposing something else entirely, an inability to learn from past experience. Trying the same thing over and over in the hopes it will work this time is futility itself.

I may have missed it above, but no one is talking about Ura as a head case. Rather the opposite.

I don't think it's psyching each other out so much as trying to surmise opening moves. These guys see a lot of each other between jungyou Basho and practice.

 

Anyway I was totally venting about how people called Kisenosato a mental case because it was unfair to his ability and a really lazy armchair diagnosis.

[lackmaker 432]

7 hours ago, Benihana said:

Ura now 10-2...and his fighting style has changed noticeably. The last bashos we often saw a flying Ura, winning just by being the second one to touch the ground. Haven't seen this Ura around a lot lately. Learning curve. Next basho will be very interesting.

Mitakeumi back on course to KK, which is nice.

Aminishiki 7-5 after 2-4 is even nicer.

Ozeki promotion for Takayasu now almost guaranteed. He has to lose his last 3 bouts with weak showings to avoid it.

And Takayasu will be tested by the 3 Fuji's.

[Bumpkin 438]

15 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

And Takayasu will be tested by the 3 Fuji's.

"3 Fujis?"  Takayasu has Harumafuji today and presumably Terunofuji on day 15. He has an open slot on day 14. I would love to see him against Ura. They are both 10-2.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Bumpkin

[Rocks 1,807]

11 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

And Takayasu will be tested by the 3 Fuji's.

Terunofuji looked like he hurt his leg again beating Shodai. He'll push hard against Tochiozan tonight but he usually gives Terunofuji a good fight. If Terunofuji loses tonight I expect he'll do his usual walk out meekly thing to protect his leg the last 2 matches in which case Takyasu will get an easy win there. I expect Takyasu will lose tonight but I think his Ozeki promotion is in the bag at this point.

[robnplunder 974]

Ura's henka was well executed but Hokutofuji read it well.   Ikio may not read it so well if Ura does it again today.   Ura going 11-2 is possible. This reminds me of Ishiura's run a few basho ago.

The other little guy, Takakeisho, is manhandling bigger guys in this basho.  To me, he's the biggest surprise and may end up with one of the 3 prizes.  

[lackmaker 432]

8 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

"3 Fujis?"  Takayasu has Harumafuji today and presumably Terunofuji on day 15. He has an open slot on day 14. I would love to see him against Ura. They are both 10-2.

Oops, must pay more attention. Ura would be good to see.

 

[robnplunder 974]

Takayasu would destroy Ura. 

[Rocks 1,807]

3 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Takayasu would destroy Ura. 

It would be interesting to see but I don't expect Ura to get a high ranker on day 14. I think most likely they will put him against Takakeisho. I think Ura has a good shot of beating Ikioi though because Ikioi is go forward or bust. If Ura beats both of them then I can see them putting him against one of the Komusubi on Day 15.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

7 hours ago, autotroph said:

I think that's a spittoon.

That would make sense, but I have long been disgusted by the habit of most rikishi to spit on the floor while they are waiting to walk the hanamichi.  Talk about a slippery slope.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

6 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Looks like Goeido's got a good shot at KK now, but he can't mess anything up. And he still has Harumafuji these last three days somewhere.

He fights Harumafuji on Day 14.  He can get his KK on Day 13 against Takarafuji.  

"If" Terunofuji withdraws due to injury, the torikumi of the final few days may get reshuffled.  As much as I was/am hoping that Teru can mix things up on the leader board in his scheduled bout against Hakuho on Day 14, it would be interesting to see who they would chose to go up against Hakuho in his place.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Amamaniac
Replace name

[Bumpkin 438]

17 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

 

"If" Terunofuji withdraws due to injury, the torikumi of the final few days may get reshuffled.  As much as I was/am hoping that Teru can mix things up on the leader board in his scheduled bout against Hakuho on Day 14, it would be interesting to see who they would chose to go up against Hakuho in his place.

Interesting hypothetical question. My guess is M5w Shodai (8-4).

[RabidJohn 1,665]

Obviously I'm blissfully unaware of any hype surrounding Ura in the Japanese media, so I can well understand how jaded you must become with it all if you're following the press over there. He isn't hyped here.

I'm a fan of Ura's undeniable entertainment value more than his unorthodox sumo. I'd like to see him get a lot more aggressive at the tachi-ai, though I doubt we'll ever see him cracking that precious head of his like Yoshikaze does, but then lots of rikishi try to avoid that if they can. I'm sure the people who suggest he needs more upper body strength are right too.

What I don't get is why so many people believe Ura won't develop the necessary technique and strength he'll need to remain further up the banzuke, while suggesting his opponents will develop and evolve beyond him. Yes, some of them, like Hokutofuji, probably have greater ultimate potential, but the fact Ura gained all that weight tells me he's willing to adapt and change, and I won't believe that process has ended until I see it has.

He's probably going to get a very rude awakening in the joi next time, because nearly everyone does, so that won't mean much in the long run. It'll be what he learns from the experience and how he bounces back that matter. I still reckon he'll be a regular in the upper half of makuuchi with occasional appearances in sanyaku - and just maybe a sanyaku KK if everything falls into place for him.

---

I like the shorter guys and gunning for the underdog, so I also like Ishiura and Takakeisho a lot, and I'm more of a fan of their styles. Loved both their wins today. What about that Takakeisho on the belt - even Tochinoshin was smiling!

I can't recall the last time I saw a yokozuna getting a fusensho...

I wonder if Hakuho will settle one of the other debates on this forum: you know, the one about whether he'll ever zensho again...

---

Takayasu has seemingly done what he needed to for his ozeki promotion, and while he may lose to Harumafuji tomorrow, he's still likely to improve on 10 wins to clinch the deal. When are we likely to hear something official about it?

[Amamaniac 2,078]

22 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I can't recall the last time I saw a yokozuna getting a fusensho...

Not exactly a regular occurrence.  In Hakuho's entire (i.e., long) career to date, he has received only two fusensho.  The first was on day 12 of the 2009 Hatsu basho.  And a little more recently, he received a fusensho on day 8 of the 2015 Summer basho.  

You might find this site helpful: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=1123

[Frakazu 22]

3 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Hakuho's entire (i.e., long) career to date, he has received only two fusensho.

Not exactly... fusen 5 (0,48 %, overall rate is 0,47 %)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=1123#0fusen

[Rocks 1,807]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

"If" Terunofuji withdraws due to injury, the torikumi of the final few days may get reshuffled.  As much as I was/am hoping that Teru can mix things up on the leader board in his scheduled bout against Hakuho on Day 14, it would be interesting to see who they would chose to go up against Hakuho in his place.

I don't expect him to withdraw at all. He just keeps going with the injury and backs meekly off the dohyo instead. He's still technically in the yusho race so I expect him to try hard tonight but if he loses tonight I think he will lose the last 2 days also, and quickly at that.

[Dwale 419]

1 minute ago, Rocks said:

I don't expect him to withdraw at all. He just keeps going with the injury and backs meekly off the dohyo instead. He's still technically in the yusho race so I expect him to try hard tonight but if he loses tonight I think he will lose the last 2 days also, and quickly at that.

That would be a shame since he's been fighting well, but I would prefer that to seeing him aggravate an injury.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

14 minutes ago, Frakazu said:

Not exactly... fusen 5 (0,48 %, overall rate is 0,47 %)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=1123#0fusen

Sorry.  I should have said "entire Yokozuna career".  3 of the 5 fusen came before his ascension to Grand Champion.  I was replying to RabidJohn's comment about Yokozuna's getting fusensho...

[Amamaniac 2,078]

2 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

Interesting hypothetical question. My guess is M5w Shodai (8-4).

Frankly, if Ura keeps winning, I could see Ura getting the nod rather than Shodai.  Shodai is higher up in the banzuke, but his record is not as good as Ura's (10-2) in this tournament.

[Kuroyama 715]

3 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I don't think it's psyching each other out so much as trying to surmise opening moves. These guys see a lot of each other between jungyou Basho and practice.

 

Anyway I was totally venting about how people called Kisenosato a mental case because it was unfair to his ability and a really lazy armchair diagnosis.

Trying to gain a psychological advantage is expressly the purpose of the shikiri.

Kisenosato was a mental case. It was precisely by way of being fair to his ability, because there was a time when he would consistently underperform or choke in high-pressure situations. But that's been strictly a past-tense issue for some time now.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Kuroyama