BASHO TALK -- Natsu 2017 -- SPOILERS

[Bumpkin 438]

7 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

 

Kotoyuki will be going back to the juryo it seems, so unfortunate that a guy who had a great run around the same time his heya mate was doing good has fallen so low. All because the NSK killed the bark.

 

Correction. Hakuho killed the bark.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

I'm feeling kinda sorry for people with tickets for Day 12. Their prospective sanyaku slate was Kisenosato-Goeido, Harumafuji-Takayasu and Hakuho-Tamawashi. After Kise's withdrawal they're now getting...Kotoshogiku-Mitakeumi, and that's it.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

On another note, I'm starting to lose the ability to tell the difference between people who jokingly say "Kotoyuki's only losing so much because he can't hoot anymore" and people who actually, seriously believe it for some unfathomable reason.

[Rocks 1,807]

56 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Takagenji got EXTREMELY lucky today and staved off the curtain for one more day as his opponent committed an isamiashi.

 

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

2 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

 

Phew, I'm really astonished that such an incredible amount of Sumo wisdom can be condensed in those small sentences. I'm baffled, really. I'm not even able to grasp the category "like Ura" as I have never seen a Rikishi which is in any way similar.

Now that the final truth is spoken, it is crystal clear that both Rikishi in mention are doomed for the rest of their careers.

I totally agree with you. Personally I am at a loss why people think Ura is doomed to a mediocre career, can't get up to makuuchi, can't stay in makuuchi, can't stay in sanyaku, whatever. Based on what actually? His size? At 174 cm, 137 kg (current data from the Kyokai site) he is neither the shortest nor the lightest rikishi in makuuchi, so it can't really be the size, no? Based on his sumo technique? This would be getting ridiculous as his technique for sure is excellent on his own. His physical strength? Seems ok to me as well. His fighting style? This could well be the weak point but who knows for sure - I certainly don't. His sometimes weird behaviour? Didn't even hinder Takamisakari to become a makuuchi mainstay.

So really, what is it?

[Dwale 419]

Woo! Some good bouts today, let's see...

Yoshikaze v. Endo was quite entertaining, lots of movement and back and forth. My favorite of the day.

I was surprised Ura was able to pull that off. Watching on a miniature feed earlier, I couldn't even really tell what happened. I don't think Shodai's likely to let that happen a second time, but it was nice. Ura is very quick.

I got a strange satisfaction out of Chiyoshoma's win, too. Hey, "stay on your feet, don't step out" is Sumo 101. If you can get a win by flitting around like a butterfly, more power to ya.

Speaking of, there's Harumafuji. Not the first time he's lost from getting a little wild with his footwork. I think he tries to brace low to generate more power to compensate for his (relatively) low weight, but that's no good on the bales. Anticlimactic and it may cost him dearly in the end. We shall see.

Takayasu is so close now. Ah, but that's exciting. I do agree that he'll be more convincing with 11 or more wins, but he's got to get ten first. 

 

[Dwale 419]

10 minutes ago, Doitsuyama said:

I totally agree with you. Personally I am at a loss why people think Ura is doomed to a mediocre career, can't get up to makuuchi, can't stay in makuuchi, can't stay in sanyaku, whatever. Based on what actually? His size? At 174 cm, 137 kg (current data from the Kyokai site) he is neither the shortest nor the lightest rikishi in makuuchi, so it can't really be the size, no? Based on his sumo technique? This would be getting ridiculous as his technique for sure is excellent on his own. His physical strength? Seems ok to me as well. His fighting style? This could well be the weak point but who knows for sure - I certainly don't. His sometimes weird behaviour? Didn't even hinder Takamisakari to become a makuuchi mainstay.

So really, what is it?

Well, I think folks are put off by all the hype. As to whether they're justified in feeling that way, time will tell. Ura certainly has talent, but the full breadth of it remains yet to be seen. But, if he is able to live up to the hype (which, to be fair, is a tall order at this point), then the day will come when the doubters will fall silent. 

As for me personally, I'm content to watch and wait, and to enjoy the ride. One thing Ura is definitely not is boring.

[RabidJohn 1,663]

What 'hype' around Ura?

He was brought to my attention here on this forum as he was rising up makushita, and not in a hyperbolic fashion either. He had an extraordinary winning percentage. It was special.

Videos of him started to appear, and he moved like no one else I've ever seen in ozumo (and I saw Mainoumi live in the flesh in 1991). It was and still is special.

He hit something of a wall for a while in juryo, but he was unexpectedly (to me) banging weight on and clearly having to come to terms with that decision. When he emerged into makuuchi last basho he was still finding his way a bit, but this time he seems to have found confidence in his sumo. He's a shorter than average rikishi, but far from the lightest in the division, yet he can still move incredibly fast and he appears to have lost nothing of his gymnast's sense of balance and agility, all of which makes him extremely popular (look at the kensho!). That is special.

It's not hype FFS, it's real!

I did not expect him to prevail against Shodai today, but he did! I don't expect him ever to be a sanyaku mainstay either, but I'm pretty sure he will continue to confound almost everyone's expectations, hopefully for a good long career, so who knows?

Will Ura end up facing a sanyaku opponent this basho?

I was also very pleased for Mitakeumi today, as his score doesn't really reflect his performance. About time something paid off for his 100% effort every bout. I'm hoping he can hang on to his sanyaku status.

Kisenosato made the right move. No point risking further injury by being blasted off the dohyo by Tamawashi. He's given the crowd the best of what he had to offer this time.

---

A couple of pages back someone posted that zabuton are thrown in anger/disgust when a yokozuna loses. And there was me thinking (for over 30 years) that it was a celebration of the underdog winning! How wrong can you be?

I still prefer my way of looking at it, though...

---

I do not discount the psychological effect being forced to stop doing the thing that made him popular with the crowd may have had on Kotoyuki's performance. Nor do I discount the possibility that it's just a coincidence. (He said, balancing carefully on the fence.)

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by RabidJohn

[ryafuji 807]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

On another note, I'm starting to lose the ability to tell the difference between people who jokingly say "Kotoyuki's only losing so much because he can't hoot anymore" and people who actually, seriously believe it for some unfathomable reason.

Is it true that "the NSK killed the bark"? Why would they? What harm was it doing? Just that a pre-match routine can't be audible?

Edited May 24, 2017 by ryafuji

[Benevolance 2,478]

One time, in sumo camp, Kotoyuki's bark startled Takanohana oyakata such that that he leaped from his zabuton and injured an elderly passerby. The resulting lawsuit was settled for 1Y but carried with it two restrictive covenants: the first, that Ura was totally frakkin' awesome and totally deserves his cred, and; in the second, Kotoyuki was to cease and desist barking at strangers. 

[Amamaniac 2,078]

I watched the NHK broadcast of Day 11's action.  It provided footage of Hakuho emerging from the shitakubeya with his tsukibito in tow.  What caught my eye was that one younger tsukibito came out with a plastic bowl of something (liquid?).  Hakuho stopped in the hall with his back to the camera.  He bent over the bowl as if to breathe in whatever it contained.  My first thought was that it might be something like smelling salts.  Then I considered that it was some oriental concoction.  Anyone have any thoughts?  Hakuho seems to be trying everything to keep on top.

[Dwale 419]

51 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

What 'hype' around Ura?

He was brought to my attention here on this forum as he was rising up makushita, and not in a hyperbolic fashion either. He had an extraordinary winning percentage. It was special.

Videos of him started to appear, and he moved like no one else I've ever seen in ozumo (and I saw Mainoumi live in the flesh in 1991). It was and still is special.

He hit something of a wall for a while in juryo, but he was unexpectedly (to me) banging weight on and clearly having to come to terms with that decision. When he emerged into makuuchi last basho he was still finding his way a bit, but this time he seems to have found confidence in his sumo. He's a shorter than average rikishi, but far from the lightest in the division, yet he can still move incredibly fast and he appears to have lost nothing of his gymnast's sense of balance and agility, all of which makes him extremely popular (look at the kensho!). That is special.

It's not hype FFS, it's real!

I did not expect him to prevail against Shodai today, but he did! I don't expect him ever to be a sanyaku mainstay either, but I'm pretty sure he will continue to confound almost everyone's expectations, hopefully for a good long career, so who knows?

Will Ura end up facing a sanyaku opponent this basho?

 

 

"Hype" means "intensive publicity." It does not necessarily mean that such publicity is unwarranted. That is why we have the phrase "lives up to the hype."

[Benihana 1,901]

17 hours ago, sekitori said:

In Kisenato's case, the zabutons are exactly where they should be--under people's rear ends, not flying in the air. 

A zabuton has to fly once in a while, else it slowly dies from depression.

 

5 hours ago, Rocks said:

As far as "Like Ura", there's been a lot of Uras.   Yoshikaze for one. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Ura gets old and wise, if he sticks around long enough, like Yoshikaze he'll put together a small run at the top. But like Yoshikaze he'll have to go through a LOT of this:

Pardon? Ura is quick as f***, not the lightest and weakest to be tossed around, almost perfect ring sense, almost perfect balance. His history pays off now, big time. He has the ability to avoid his opponents to play their own game like nobody else and even if his opponent get's a grip, or forces him onto the bales, he very often is able to just eel out of the situation and win the bout. Maybe he will never be a Yokozuna, but right now his learning curve is not climbing, it is rocketing up into the sky. If he stays without major injury, he will be a joi/sanyaku elevator rikishi at least.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Benihana

[Bumpkin 438]

10 minutes ago, Benihana said:

 Maybe he will never be a Yokozuna, but right now his learning curve is not climbing, it is rocketing up into the sky. If he stays without major injury, he will be a joi/sanyaku elevator rikishi at least.

I agree 100%. Ura's potential is unlimited.

[MrGrumpyGills 119]

14 minutes ago, Benihana said:

A zabuton has to fly once in a while, else it slowly dies from depression.

Awww! XD

[ALAKTORN 346]

Yutakayama looks like he has a great physique, but maybe it’s just all fat and no muscles. Either that or he lacks technique… I don’t know what it is, but he should definitely be winning much more than he is with that body.

Ura is amazing.

The moment Aoiyama grabbed the belt I knew he had lost. lol He needs to push, not do belt battles…

Mitakeumi somehow neutralized Harumafuji’s bullet tachiai, after which he’s not that scary…

This is Hakuhō’s basho, come on.

 

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

A couple of pages back someone posted that zabuton are thrown in anger/disgust when a yokozuna loses. And there was me thinking (for over 30 years) that it was a celebration of the underdog winning! How wrong can you be?

That’s the official explanation, how it historically began and is supposed to be. But lately I highly doubt that customers throwing the zabuton are celebrating the underdog.

[Stein 30]

Following the ongoing debate about Ura, im really excited about him, i believe that if he stays progressing and injury free, he can surely make ozeki one day, he is very young at 24 and with a lot of potential, damn, he is 9-2 already!

As for the ones who still claim that Kisenosato is not worthy of being a yokozuna because of his perfomance in this basho, i mean come on, he has the most wins of 2016, he has been in a play off followed by 2 consecutive yusho wins, why are these guys hating so much? why dont you complain about kakuryu.

 

Anyway, with this being my first post on this forum, hi to everyone, what a great basho we re in.

[Adil 232]

The great Ura debate:

I enjoy his matches. He appears to be very strong and his unorthodox style has been successful so far, not to mentioned entertaining because of all the strange movements and throws. As for his future, who knows? I happen to be among those who don't see him as a sanyaku mainstay if he keeps fighting in his current style. I know I am new to sumo and perhaps the more experienced people have seen in him what a noob like me can't see. The reason I think he can't be a sanyaku mainstay with his current style is because I haven't seen anyone with a style like that go high up on the banzuke. Granted, there are not many who fight like that - currently there is only Satoyama and of course, there was Mainoumi in his day (neither of whom made sanyaku, by the way, except for that one tournament at komusubi for Mainoumi where he went 2-13).

Why does nobody use that style? I think it is because (noob armchair sumo analysis alert) 1) it is very difficult and 2) even if you develop your technique to perfection, you will still have no chance against the best orthodox yotsu and oshi specialists. Perhaps Ura proves himself to be way better than Satoyama and Mainoumi. I hope he does. For now, I will just sit back and enjoy his matches. Even if he doesn't become a sanyaku or joi jin mainstay - damnit, even if he drops down to juryo - I will be following him. Sometimes I watch juryo for no other reason other than seeing Satoyama in action. It would be cool to see someone going against the big boys with the submarine style, so yes, I am hoping he makes it, but I don't think it is likely.  

Edited May 24, 2017 by Adil

[Asashosakari 18,786]

I still have the suspicion that Ura is going to turn (back) into a nonstop henka machine once he's established in a banzuke area (joi or "only" mid-maegashira) and his opponents have the opportunity to develop more of a book on his style by facing him more often than just a couple of times. We already saw as much when the going got tough for a bit in juryo - and he can't just weight-gain himself out of that scenario again, as he did down there.

[Bumpkin 438]

17 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I still have the suspicion that Ura is going to turn (back) into a nonstop henka machine once he's established in a banzuke area (joi or "only" mid-maegashira) and his opponents have the opportunity to develop more of a book on his style by facing him more often than just a couple of times. We already saw as much when the going got tough for a bit in juryo - and he can't just weight-gain himself out of that scenario again, as he did down there.

It took Ura only 6 bashos to reach Juryo. His combined W-L was 38-4. "When the going got tough for a bit in juryo", it took him 5 bashos, 10-5, 11-4, 6-9, 8-7 and 11-4. That's a combined W-L of 46-29. IIRC, he was also injured in his only make-koshi. Since entering Maku-uchi, he's gone 8-7 and 9-2 so far. What about Ura's record doesn't scream, "Sanyaku regular."

Edited May 24, 2017 by Bumpkin

[Asojima 2,870]

5 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

What about Ura's record doesn't scream, "Sanyaku regular."

Okinoumi, Endo, Ichinojo, Myogiryu, Ishiura, Osunaarashi, etc., etc.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

15 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

It took Ura only 6 bashos to reach Juryo. His combined W-L was 38-4. "When the going got tough for a bit in juryo", it took him 5 bashos, 10-5, 11-4, 6-9, 8-7 and 11-4. That's a combined W-L of 46-29. IIRC, he was also injured in his only make-koshi. Since entering Maku-uchi, he's gone 8-7 and 9-2 so far. What about Ura's record doesn't scream, "Sanyaku regular."

As I said, IMHO a lot of his success so far was built on beating a bunch of guys with his unusual techniques and then moving on to the next bunch of equally unprepared guys. 

[Bumpkin 438]

13 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Okinoumi, Endo, Ichinojo, Myogiryu, Ishiura, Osunaarashi, etc., etc.

I wasn't following sumo when Okinoumi came up. He seems like an elevator rikishi. Endo has had two knee injuries. He is only 26. Ichinojo has chronic back pain. He is only 24. Myogiryu has 12 sanyaku appearances. That's a sanyaku regular. Ishiura has only been in Maku-uchi for 4 bashos. As for Osunaarashi, no one has been injured more than him. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Bumpkin

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Just to add some shameless cherry-picked stats...Ura in his 75 juryo bouts, which were against no less than 39 different opponents:

record against opponents faced 3+ times: 19-16
record against opponents faced twice: 12-10
record against opponents faced once: 15-3

[Gurowake 3,915]

6 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

What 'hype' around Ura?

He was brought to my attention here on this forum as he was rising up makushita, and not in a hyperbolic fashion either. He had an extraordinary winning percentage. It was special.

Videos of him started to appear, and he moved like no one else I've ever seen in ozumo (and I saw Mainoumi live in the flesh in 1991). It was and still is special

 

He was hyped well before he even stepped on the Ozumo dohyo.  Videos of him as an amateur were going around at the time he announced he was entering.  He really stole the thunder from Hokutofuji, who should have been hyped more based on results, but Ura was just more spectacular.  I still don't think it'll work very well in the long-run, but I've been wrong plenty of times before.