Basho Talk ** Haru Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[Morty 1,505]

2 minutes ago, PawnSums said:

Takayasu Could get 12 Wins here and be promoted now.

He needs 15 for promotion at the end of this basho. That would get him to the 33 needed for Ozeki promotion. It would also get him the yusho

[PawnSums 59]

Just now, Morty said:

He needs 15 for promotion at the end of this basho. That would get him to the 33 needed for Ozeki promotion. It would also get him the yusho

I am confused, is it 30? or 33? not how I would work it, if we have 2 now, it should be 30, if we had 4 like last basho, it should be 33

[Bumpkin 438]

Just now, Morty said:

He needs 15 for promotion at the end of this basho. That would get him to the 33 needed for Ozeki promotion. It would also get him the yusho

Goeido and Terunofuji only had 32. A yusho should do the trick.

[orandashoho 720]

If Takayasu gets 12 wins he will be promoted to S1e. If he gets 15 and a yusho... maybe. He is on an Ozeki run for sure. Whether he gets it after this basho or the next is the question. Most probably he will have to show consistent Ozeki form from Sekiwake position first.
Did any Ozeki get promoted to Yokozuna from a position that is not O1e?

Edited March 16, 2017 by orandashoho

[kumoryu 95]

Surely they wouldn't promote him. The three basho would include a makekoshi, another would be as komusubi. Even a zensho yusho wouldn't tip the scales, I think.

 

edit -- promote him to ozeki, I mean; S1E is a different matter

Edited March 16, 2017 by kumoryu

[Morty 1,505]

1 minute ago, PawnSums said:

I am confused, is it 30? or 33? not how I would work it, if we have 2 now, it should be 30, if we had 4 like last basho, it should be 33

The standard for Ozeki promotion is generally stated as being 33 wins over three basho while in the Sanyaku ranks. His last two basho were 7 wins, followed by 11 wins, meaning he needs 15 here. Of course, a yusho might change that given what happened with Teronofuji, but it might not be, given that 7 wins is a losing record and doesn't show consistency. Although he did get 11 and 10 in the two basho before the 7. But I reckon he needs lots of wins here (11 or more), followed by the same next basho - then they will promote him. But only the old men of the Kyokai really know what the standard that he needs to meet is and they change their minds about it all the time...

[Rocks 1,809]

Yeah, I think even with a zensho yusho they wouldn't make Takyasu Ozeki. But they might if Giku doesn't get his 10. He has been putting up double digit wins pretty regularly. But it would take a zensho for sure.

[Asashosakari 19,655]

I'm 99.99999999% sure Takayasu ain't getting promoted to ozeki after this basho even if he goes 15-0 Y.

[Nantonoyama 252]

1 hour ago, orandashoho said:

Did any Ozeki get promoted to Yokozuna from a position that is not O1e?

 

Tamanoumi in 1970 and Kashiwado in 1961, during the multiple promotion basho

In 1948 Azumafuji was promoted from O1w, yet it was the top ozeki spot for this basho (why?)

Last time it occured was in 1947 with Maedayama going 11-2J 9-1D at ranks O2eHD and O1w. In this case what I do not understand is why Maedayama was O1w at this basho, since he did 11-2 while the rikishi in O1e, Saganohana, ranked behind him at O2wHD, only did 10-3 at the previous basho. If someone knows about it, I'm very curious to know

I hardly understand the rules for banzuke making of the {6 basho per year, 15 days per basho} era

[Rocks 1,809]

13 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm 99.99999999% sure Takayasu ain't getting promoted to ozeki after this basho even if he goes 15-0 Y.

me too neither. But, what if he goes 15-0 and beats Kisenosato in a playoff? 16-0

[Asashosakari 19,655]

19 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

In 1948 Azumafuji was promoted from O1w, yet it was the top ozeki spot for this basho (why?)

I could be wrong, but they seem to have tested a banzuke-writing style without haridashi ranks at the time, which only lasted for two tournaments. Probably part of the various reform ideas they were trying out post-WWII in order to kickstart sumo's popularity again. (I once read that there were serious considerations of turning the tournaments into more of a knockout bracket deal, something that Tenryu's short-lived breakaway organization had implemented in the 1930s.)
 

19 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

Last time it occured was in 1947 with Maedayama going 11-2J 9-1D at ranks O2eHD and O1w. In this case what I do not understand is why Maedayama was O1w at this basho, since he did 11-2 while the rikishi in O1e, Saganohana, ranked behind him at O2wHD, only did 10-3 at the previous basho. If someone knows about it, I'm very curious to know

Saganohana was on the side that had won the East-West "team" competition so (almost) all the West guys were collectively shuttled over to the East side, and vice versa: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=194611&snr=on. In other words, East > West only applies at the divisional level here, not necessarily at the individual rikishi level. (See also the two 8-5's going from M11 to M4.)

Edited March 16, 2017 by Asashosakari

[orandashoho 720]

The only thing about banzuke promotions that makes sense to me is that it will get progressively more difficult the higher up you go. In other words, the steps get smaller and smaller and get harder to make.
Barriers within a ranking are less high than the hurdle to reach the next rank up the ladder and may only be a shuffle dependent on the results of one basho or a need to make place for a demoted rikishi. But a S1w will not become S1e unless he has a good result AND there is no Ozeki demotion. So it is still possible for Takayasu to miss even the S1e spot if Goeido gets demoted with a 7-8 result.

[Bumpkin 438]

3 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

The only thing about banzuke promotions that makes sense to me is that it will get progressively more difficult the higher up you go. In other words, the steps get smaller and smaller and get harder to make.
Barriers within a ranking are less high than the hurdle to reach the next rank up the ladder and may only be a shuffle dependent on the results of one basho or a need to make place for a demoted rikishi. But a S1w will not become S1e unless he has a good result AND there is no Ozeki demotion. So it is still possible for Takayasu to miss even the S1e spot if Goeido gets demoted with a 7-8 result.

No. Ozeki Goeido can't be demoted. Ozeki Terunofuji will be demoted if he does not get at least 8 wins. Sekiwake Kotoshogiku will be promoted if he gets at least 10 wins. He will remain a sekiwake with 8 or 9 wins. He will be demoted (or retire) with 8 or more losses. As for the S1e spot for May, that will be whomever of Tamawashi, Takayasu or Kotoshogiku (if he gets 8 or 9) that gets the most wins.

[Asojima 2,874]

18 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

So it is still possible for Takayasu to miss even the S1e spot if Goeido gets demoted with a 7-8 result.

A demoted Ozeki goes to the lowest Sekiwake rank.

[Raishu 208]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

He needs 15 for promotion at the end of this basho. [...] It would also get him the yusho

Not neccessarily.  There is a slight chance of Kise going 15-0 as well, which would lead to a playoff. Unlikely, but possible.

Plus, I agree that Takayasu won't get the promotion even with a zensho yusho.

[orandashoho 720]

4 minutes ago, Asojima said:

A demoted Ozeki goes to the lowest Sekiwake rank.

That might depend on the result of the Ozeki and the results of the other Sekiwake.

[kumoryu 95]

Incidentally, I'm outrageously happy that we are seriously -- or semi-seriously -- discussing the prospects of a Takayasu Ozeki promotion or a Takayasu yusho. I've been a huge fan for many years -- to the point of going to meet his family last time I went to the kokugikan in Tokyo. I've never allowed myself to really believe he could rise to the highest level, but it does seem just around the corner now. I'm so excited!

[Nantonoyama 252]

3 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

That might depend on the result of the Ozeki and the results of the other Sekiwake.

 

No, a demoted sekiwake gets the lowest sekiwake rank, which can be S1w if no other rikishi "deserves" the sekiwake spot, but in this case there will be no S2 (unless multiple ozeki demotions). If two rikishi (or more) deserve the sekiwake spot, an additional sekiwake spot is opened and the demoted ozeki is ranked S2e (or S2w if three rikishi deserve it, e.g. 2 kk sekiwake, 1 stong 12-3 komusubi and 1 demoted ozeki; or even S2w for balancing reasons between east and west)

[orandashoho 720]

1 minute ago, Nantonoyama said:

9 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

That might depend on the result of the Ozeki and the results of the other Sekiwake.

 

No, a demoted sekiwake gets the lowest sekiwake rank, which can be S1w if no other rikishi "deserves" the sekiwake spot, but in this case there will be no S2 (unless multiple ozeki demotions). If two rikishi (or more) deserve the sekiwake spot, an additional sekiwake spot is opened and the demoted ozeki is ranked S2e (or S2w if three rikishi deserve it, e.g. 2 kk sekiwake, 1 stong 12-3 komusubi and 1 demoted ozeki; or even S2w for balancing reasons between east and west)

Thanks for explaining.

[Asashosakari 19,655]

35 minutes ago, Asojima said:

A demoted Ozeki goes to the lowest Sekiwake rank.

I'm not sure if that's an actual hard rule. I could see them do it differently if the two new sekiwake are, say, a demoted ozeki and a komusubi who went only 8-7.

[Chiyozakura 148]

32 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm not sure if that's an actual hard rule. I could see them do it differently if the two new sekiwake are, say, a demoted ozeki and a komusubi who went only 8-7.

Or a Sekiwake keeps his rank after 7-8 with the Ozeki demoted with the same score.

[Philioyamfugi 378]

So looks like giku couldn't drive that right knee up then slipped. Kisenosanto doing yokazuna sumo.

[Arn 24]

20 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

But there hasn't been much discussion on how late the chief referee (Fujishima) called for the monoii.  The kensho envelopes were already in Ikioi's hot hands when the call came.  That is symbolically a fait acompli.  Has there ever been a monoii called any later than that?  I have only followed sumo for about 8 years, but this is the latest call I've ever seen.

Hard to believe it being that late did not influence the final descision. I dont think they would have liked to take back the money already given.

I dont understand why they have to complicate things with the "dead body"-rule at all, I think the normal rule that whoever touches down first loses is great since there is so little room for interpretation (especially with camera enchanced-monoiis).

[rzombie1988 159]

Notes:

- Hakuho is out with a foot injury. He's very clearly past his absolute peak, but it's Hakuho and his peak was god status. He's just now going down to Dai-Yokozuna status. His last 5 bashos have been the worst stretch of his career ever. Him being out of the picture really opens things up. Hoping Kakuryu loses again soon and I'd really love to see a final between Kise and Terunofuji.

- Things are looking good for Terunofuji and Kisenosato. We got a lot of basho left but Hakuho being out is huge for them. Terunofuji is a stablemate of Harumafuji so he only has to worry about Kakuryu and Kisenosato, so things are looking good there.

- Takayasu picked up another good win today looking solid. He's got Harumafuji and Kakuryu to face later in the tournament but he's a Kisenosato stablemate. I would want to get as many wins as possible next time around as the Yok's won't be struggling as much next time.

- Kotoshogiku lost in a quick one and needs to win 7 of his next 10 to get back up to Ozeki. A lot of this is going to depend on what matches he ends up getting. The harder the matches he gets booked in, the worse chance he has. I really did like the Tamawashi/Koto match though as the angle shown just showed how hard they hit.

-Goeido's injured at 1-4 and apparently was only training 4 days before the basho started. He looks pretty weak so far and he's guaranteed to go MK  for next basho.

- Ichinojo lost out to Endo, but Endo really was on point and there's no shame in that loss.

Edited March 16, 2017 by rzombie1988

[Arn 24]

I love Kisenosatos understated swagger after winning, "yes, I am that good".

I also really like the calm, meassured sumo of Takarafuji. He just takes what is thrown at him, and does not get bothered.

Terunofuji looks like he is back for real, completely different body language from him, lets see if it lasts the whole tournament. I am actually really surprised that the toughing it out-approach seems to work out  (temporarily at least...) for both him and Endo.

There must be a big risk that Harumafuji will pull out also, leaving the scene for Kisenosato.

It is not surprising that Goeido is having problems if he has been injured instead of training.