Basho Talk ** Haru Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[Asashosakari 19,104]

1 hour ago, Benihana said:

In real life Morty is a writer for WWE 

I feel compelled to point out that WWE's writers would probably struggle to tell a coherent story over as many as two months...

[MumboJumbo 37]

I also had to chuckle at the fact that Terunofuji had the gall to pull something like this. Kotoshogiku didn't appear to defend against this at all. Something was fishy when Terunofuji pulled the fake matta, and I would be thinking henka in his position. Of course, I'm not the one on the dohyo.

From a competitive viewpoint, it was "smart" to do this against Kotoshogiku, but from the perspective of class and spirit it was clearly a terrbile thing to do given what was on the line in the bout. I was pulling for Kotoshogiku this basho, but his losses over the past few days sealed the deal. 

I'm a Terunofuji fan, but I would laugh even harder if Kisenosato conpletely embarrasses him and somehow beats him for the yusho. A true showing of instant karma. The chances of this actually happening look extremely small. The conspiracy theorist inside of me says Kisenosato will win the first bout and then the playoff will be some epic multi-minute struggle, of course all scripted to show that good guy Kisenosato is a true yokozuna that can fight evil Terunofuji with one hand tied behind his back.

[Gurowake 4,031]

2 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

To me, it is very much a 試合 versus 勝負 situation, but I have difficulty expressing it succinctly (or at all) in English.

I don't think there are single words in English that describe the difference.  The best I can imagine is that it's "competition for the purpose of testing yourself" vs. "competition for the purpose of winning".  Clearly foreigners that come into Sumo will be much more interested in just plain winning than native Japanese rikishi whose culture is entwined with the activity and who think of it as much as a cultural activity than a competitive sport.

[Fukurou 534]

34 minutes ago, Onibushou said:

-Why is using a henka on the guy voted "most likely to fall for a blatant henka" suddenly considered clever? It seems more like common sense, if you're desperate enough to care about nothing but beating 'Giku. (Although I have a hard time imagining he loses that straight up, and Kise clearly isn't fit to fight anymore, so I don't know what he could be so desperate? for.)

-I have to wonder if Terunofuji would have still used the henka had Kisenosato withdrawn and completely handed the title over instead of theoretically staying in the running.

-Anyone else kind of hoping for a Kisenosato henka? Probably wouldn't work too well (once, much less twice), but I doubt straight-"forward" sumo (or just walking backwards out of the ring) will do him much good regardless.

There are times to henka and times to henka. Don't forget that Hakuho began his yokozuna run with a basho-winning henka of yokozuna Asashoryu. Didn't hurt his image as the super-honorable, perfect rikishi, "white hat" one bit. That was 10 years ago this basho.

[Gurowake 4,031]

11 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

There are times to henka and times to henka. Don't forget that Hakuho began his yokozuna run with a basho-winning henka of yokozuna Asashoryu. Didn't hurt his image as the super-honorable, perfect rikishi, "white hat" one bit. That was 10 years ago this basho.

I suspect Japanese fans *applauded* someone henka'ing Asashoryu.

[Rigel 62]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

My conspiracy theory is this. Kisenosato is famously genki, but he hurt himself at the start of the last basho and needed time off. So everyone rallied around and let him win the yusho so he could become a Yokozuna, but did so gently so as he wouldn't hurt himself further. They also let him win the first 12 of this basho to cement the illusion, then he pitched himself off the dohyo yesterday and "injured" himself (in reality an injury he has been carrying for three months). Because he is a Yokozuna he can now take a couple of basho off to heal and not have to lose his Ozeki status (that was the crucial part about making him Yokozuna). But here's the important bit. To seal the deal they got the previously injured and perennially kadoban Mongolian Ozeki to return to his ass kicking ways, beat all comers, then bust out a henka against the popular sekiwake seeking to return to Ozeki Kotoshogiku, so everyone will hate the Mongolians again (especially after it was Harumafuji who chucked Kisenosato off the dohyo to begin with), and to take the heat off Yokozuna Kisenosato for not winning the yusho for a second time in a row. Dead simple when you think about it.

The problem with your theory is that it did not look like he was injured by the fall. He was clearly grimacing from the hit as he was falling out.

[itchyknee 60]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Clever, no doubt, but it's the type of thing that will only serve to reinforce the old stereotype that certain rikishi (to not use the "M" word) are only there for the paycheck.

3 hours ago, McBugger said:

Haven't heard that word since that conspiracy theorist was banned. Fun times. 

Can anyone post a reference for this? I have no idea what is being discussed.

 

[Dwale 419]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

On the flipside, this is pretty much the opportunity to demonstrate why sumo "needs" Japanese yokozuna even if they're not the best but only one of the best, and even missing out on yusho as he probably will here. It's an expensive PR lesson given the yusho prize involved, but Kise has a lot to gain here from being a good sport and going through tomorrow's match in a dignified manner.

Which he will. It wasn't Kisenosato's skills that made me his fan (although he has excellent skills), but his composure.

[Shatsume 118]

It's official, I now despise Terunofuji.

I like a good henka, and I have no problem with gamesmanship such as sledging in cricket. But to me that was the equivalent of say in football, faking a horrible injury to get a free kick, hobbling about and then receiving a quick pass and sprinting into the box to score a goal; as close to cheating as you can get whilst staying within the rules. Fair enough you will get away with it, but because of this he will certainly not make Yokozuna if he wins back to backs, in my amateur opinion. In fact I hope he never gets promoted.

[HenryK 38]

I for my part do not subscribe to the notion that there are circumstances where a henka is kosher and others where it is not. A henka punishes a careless opponent with a slick move, and a risky move if the opponent reads it. It's part of the game and without it sumo would not be sumo, as someone else wrote. Further, it's not that only Terunofuji would have henka-ed when much is on the line. Kotoshogiku himself has been no stranger to this, for example at Nagoya 2015 against the very Terunofuji, securing kachi-koshi but arguably ending the latter's Yokozuna run. Or earlier in his career against tsuppari specialists like Chiyotaikai or Miyabiyama, against who his one-trick-pony yotsu sumo did not work.

As for this provoking an anti-foreigner pushback, I hope not, but who knows. There have always been forces for this, running the likes of Asashoryu out of town, while letting Kisenosato get away with every tachiai antics in the book and then granting him the easiest of promotions to Yokozuna since Futohaguro. It would indeed be something if Kisenosato makes it to Yokozuna with 12-3J 14-1Y, but Terunofuji would not make it with Y-Y. But if it comes indeed like this, it's only the kyokai that shows its colors.

[Asapedroryu 229]

Hi,

Sorry for my first comment on this forum is to disagree with most people...

In my opinion Terunofuji did what he had to do to secure the Yusho in a legal way. Although like most people he was 99% sure Kisenosato was in no condition to be a threath, until Kisenosato's bout later on he couldn't be totally sure, so why not to use a legal move to secure your Yusho. Is there a Rikishi that has never used an Henka before? No. So why is this one so critisized? Didn't Kisenosato used very often in the past the tatics of delaying the tachiai to provoke a matta and get advantage (is that now forgotten?)?

As for Kotoshogiku, he did't lose the chances of getting back to Ozeki because of Teru's henka. He lost it because he lost the bouts against lower ranks (Takayasu, Tamawashi, Ikioi and Takarafuji). Had he won the matches he had the obligation to win, then he would have secured the Ozeki rank, so don't blame it on a loss against an oponent of the same rank. Also, I've been watching Sumo for more than 15 years and never seen a rikishi that is so easy to henka. Even a person without any Sumo experience could win a match against him by doing an henka because he simple doesn't look where he is going. 

As a conclusion, if Teru does win the Yusho it is well deserved as he was the best rikishi over the 15 days (Kise was at the same level or better for the first 12) and if Koto retires or never goes back to Ozeki again it is his own fault.

 

[Shatsume 118]

In other sports I would shrug my shoulders, not like it and move on after a whinge, but one of the stated requirements for becoming a Yokozuna is specifically showing the correct attitude and he doesn't have it. If he wants nothing but to get a few Y against his name fair enough, but if he wants to be remembered...

[Rigel 62]

46 minutes ago, RPedro44 said:

Hi,

Sorry for my first comment on this forum is to disagree with most people...

In my opinion Terunofuji did what he had to do to secure the Yusho in a legal way. Although like most people he was 99% sure Kisenosato was in no condition to be a threath, until Kisenosato's bout later on he couldn't be totally sure, so why not to use a legal move to secure your Yusho. Is there a Rikishi that has never used an Henka before? No. So why is this one so critisized? Didn't Kisenosato used very often in the past the tatics of delaying the tachiai to provoke a matta and get advantage (is that now forgotten?)?

There's more on the line than a yusho. If he's only there to cash checks and win tournaments then OK, but he severely damaged his chances at a yokozuna promotion anytime soon, even if he wins the next tournament.

I would go so far as to say that in MOST situations, a henka is fine. This was one of the only situations in the tournament where you simply can not do it. He very likely would have beaten down an old Kotoshogiku near retirement with bad knees anyway, but after 13 days, and the drama of getting to 10 wins, and his compelling story, he owed it both to Kotoshogiku, and to the fans who pay his salary for entertainment to give him a fair fight. If he is so tone-deaf as to not realize that a henka in THAT situation, especially one that now looks so clearly set up would bring him complete and utter hatred, then he's an idiot and should never be promoted.

I was fine with Terunofuji up to this point and was interested in his career. Now I hope this is the last yusho he ever wins and he loses his Ozeki rank before the year is out.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Rigel

[Fukurou 534]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I suspect Japanese fans *applauded* someone henka'ing Asashoryu.

I suspect fans applaud all sorts of rikishi doing henka for many different reasons

[Kintamayama 44,810]

Got the script for tomorrow. Terunofuji the shamed loses to Kisenosato, thus saving face and is immediately forgiven by the fans worldwide. He of course wins the playoff after a gallant yet failed Kisenosato effort.

Harumafuji loses to Kakuryuu. We can't have an 8-7 Yokozuna and Harumafuji is famously fighting injured anyway.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Kintamayama

[Katooshu 3,182]

Teru has been in a really bad spot for the last year and a half, going from a yokozuna contender to looking downright awful at times, especially when he went an embarrassing 2-13. As someone who watched him at his best and had high hopes, it was quite upsetting to see him reduced to a hobbling mess.

I understand that doing what is generally considered the 'right' thing in Japanese society doesn't necessarily equate to doing what is most likely to bring victory, but at the same time I think capturing the yusho would be a major boost to him, and I can see why in this situation he'd have a win at all costs mindset, even if he still usually has some respect for doing things in a culturally appropriate manner. Maybe I am applying too much of a  foreigner's mentality to a Japanese sport, but given where he's been since September 2015, along with my belief that the henka is a credible technique, I'm not outraged at him for pulling one here.

Incidentally, one of the henkas I remember best is the one Kotoshogiku beat him with to stave off demotion back in July 2015, which was Teru's first basho as an ozeki. I recall Teru being quoted as saying something like 'I wasn't expecting that!'

 

Also: Tomorrow will be a fun day down in juryo! A playoff guaranteed, and it could be a 4 rikishi affair.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Katooshu

[Ryoshishokunin 279]

To me it's almost poetic that the final hopes for Kotoshogiku's return to Ozeki were dashed by a henka.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,262]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Got the script for tomorrow. Terunofuji the shamed loses to Kisenosato, thus saving face and is immediately forgiven by the fans worldwide. He of course wins the playoff after a gallant yet failed Kisenosato effort.

Harumafuji loses to Kakuryuu. We can't have an 8-7 Yokozuna and Harumafuji is famously fighting injured anyway.

Can you tell the script writers to give better lines to the rikishi in the post bout interviews please? It has been quite dreadful the past few years.

[Masunofuji 36]

I'm going to defend Terunofuji here.

This afternoon (before Kinta's daily digest) I was checking the day's results and saw that Terunofuji defeated Kotoshogiku with a hatakikomi. I thought, wouldn't it be great if he did a henka? Turns out, he did! The absolute madman.

There are so many interconnections, but I'd like to point out just one: on the last day of the 2015 July basho, Kotoshogiku henka'd his way out of 7-7 kadoban situation in his bout against Terunofuji. The look Terunofuji have him definitely meant something. Today's result could be interpreted as "I kept you ozeki back then, I'll take it from you now".

I do agree the henka was anticlimactic though.

[PawnSums 59]

1 minute ago, Masunofuji said:

 

I do agree the henka was anticlimactic though.

Well now we have a new climax, Terunofuji Vs. Kisenosato!

[Kishinoyama 582]

All of this talk of Terunofuji getting promoted to Yokozuna if he wins the next tournament is hilarious. First, he has not won this one yet. Second, while he looks good in this tournament all it would take would be a twisted knee and he is fighting like the 4-11 Terunofuji. And finally, I am a Terunofuji supporter but I would not promote him with back to back yushos because of the 4-11 record in January.

I don't care who you are but two consecutive yushos preceded by a losing record (7-8 record or worse) and in my opinion you still don't get promoted. 

[PawnSums 59]

My thoughts for the basho:

- I don't see why people hate Terunofuji all of a sudden for what he did, he could have beat him without it but to me a bout is a bout.

- Kise is goning to easily beat Terunofuji, and then in the Playoff he'll do it again.

- I'm running out of thoughts

 

[Masunofuji 36]

6 minutes ago, PawnSums said:

Well now we have a new climax, Terunofuji Vs. Kisenosato!

Hopefully Terunofuji accords Kisenosato the same treatment as Kakuryu did today.

[Rocks 1,807]

30 minutes ago, Masunofuji said:

There are so many interconnections, but I'd like to point out just one: on the last day of the 2015 July basho, Kotoshogiku henka'd his way out of 7-7 kadoban situation in his bout against Terunofuji.

You know people keep bringing this up except, it wasn't a henka. Not a straight up one like Teru's yesterday. At worst it's a HNH. Giku took the hit. You can actually hear their heads crack against each other. And what was on the line there for Teru? A shared 12-3 Jun yusho 2 behind the winner? It's just not comparable. 

 

Just remembered this was the basho Hakuho not only full on slapped Ichinojo's face to start the match but does it again after he beats him all because Ichinojo had the temerity to beat Hakuho the basho before.  Hakuho really could be a petty jackass sometimes.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Rocks

[Asapedroryu 229]

At this point the Teru's henka talk is just people overreacting. Hakuho has done much worse (and many times) and he is still there and consider one of the greatest. And lets not talk about Asashoryu...

If he wins this one and the next yusho with a decent record of course he will be promoted to Yokozuna.