Basho Talk ** Haru Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[Rocks 1,790]

16 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

Perhaps in the future it will be forbidden, but then some people will have to define what is and what is not a henka (which is not an easy business).

The worst part about that is it could come and probably won't be formally defined. Rather the judges will call it based on their own vague definitions and you'll just have do overs.

[Philioyamfugi 378]

I think the henka is a necessary tactic. But as stated above context and character do come into play. Never a big fan of terunofuji, but much less of one now. Not an honorable deed in this case IMHO. 

[Rocks 1,790]

3 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

If Kise considered himself had no chance to win then why he climbed up the dohyo? Hoping his opponent to be gentle with him or give him a win? 

Neither considered a chance or hoping for a gift IMO. Rather his opinion of a what is required of a Yokozuna and a rikishi and to test it out.

[Benihana 1,824]

10 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Kise refused to withdraw, which means he thought he still could fight decently and still had chance to beat Kakuryu. Naturally, Kakuryu or any other rikishi who will face Kise should take Kise seriously and do not underestimate Kise. If Kise did get further injury, he only has himself to blame. 

If Kise considered himself had no chance to win then why he climbed up the dohyo? Hoping his opponent to be gentle with him or give him a win? 

It is his first basho as yokozuna and he wants to show he is worth it. I'm pretty sure he knows he has no chance in a real fight, because his arm is pretty much useless, but there always is a chance for something like a slippyotoshi. And have a look at how Kakuryu handled the whole situation. Easy win without specifically aiming at his opponents weak spot and without humiliating him. That's ninjo.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Benihana

[Morty 1,442]

My conspiracy theory is this. Kisenosato is famously genki, but he hurt himself at the start of the last basho and needed time off. So everyone rallied around and let him win the yusho so he could become a Yokozuna, but did so gently so as he wouldn't hurt himself further. They also let him win the first 12 of this basho to cement the illusion, then he pitched himself off the dohyo yesterday and "injured" himself (in reality an injury he has been carrying for three months). Because he is a Yokozuna he can now take a couple of basho off to heal and not have to lose his Ozeki status (that was the crucial part about making him Yokozuna). But here's the important bit. To seal the deal they got the previously injured and perennially kadoban Mongolian Ozeki to return to his ass kicking ways, beat all comers, then bust out a henka against the popular sekiwake seeking to return to Ozeki Kotoshogiku, so everyone will hate the Mongolians again (especially after it was Harumafuji who chucked Kisenosato off the dohyo to begin with), and to take the heat off Yokozuna Kisenosato for not winning the yusho for a second time in a row. Dead simple when you think about it.

[Atenzan 1,074]

9 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

To me, it is very much a 試合 versus 勝負 situation, but I have difficulty expressing it succinctly (or at all) in English.

It isn't quite clear to me. Do you mean it in the sense that shoubu is nuanced to imply the utmost importance of victory, while shiai is nuanced to imply an honourable duel where there is an emphasis on exercising superior ability? 

That's all I can guess and I may well be wrong, Japanese is hard. 

[rzombie1988 157]

Standings after Day 14:
13 wins
○○○○○●○○○○○○○○ O1w Terunofuji

12 wins
○○○○○○○○○○○○●● Y2w Kisenosato

11 wins
○○○○○○○○○○●●●○ S1w Takayasu

10 wins
●○●○○○○○●○○○○● Y2e Harumafuji
○○○○○○●○○○○●●● M10w Tochiozan
○●●●○○●○○○○○○○ M11e Daieisho
●○○○●●○○○●□○○○ M13e Takakeisho

Thoughts:

- Terunofuji's henka on Koto was just wrong today. Show the man some respect. Did Terunofuji appreciate it when he got henka'd and ended up losing a title to basho a while back? Very disappointing since he would have likely won anyway.

- This is very likely the end of Ozeki Kotoshogiku and we'll see if he wants to retire or keep going on from here. I'd keep going if I were him since it's clear he can get 9-10 wins if he is really putting in full effort. It's not like he declined as he was never really that great, but his strengths and weaknesses are very clear and he's easy to exploit.-

- Kise came back but is only working with one arm and was taken out easily.

- Takayasu recovered today and would love to get one more win on his road to 33 tomorrow. He'll likely need 9-10 wins next tournament to seal the deal, as they do let people slide sometimes with 32.

- Sokokurai got royally screwed today, being called out when he didn't even leave a footprint outside.

- Tamawashi got the W for his KK off of Harumafuji. Good result for him and you've gotta start somewhere.

- Kyokutaisei picked up his 8th win in Juryo and will hit his highest ever rank next tournament

Tommorow:
Harumafuji vs Kakuryu
Kisenosato vs Terunofuji - Kise would need to beat him to go to a playoff and then beat him in the playoff to win the title
Ura, Aoiyama, Ishiura, Tochinoshin, Endo and Daishomaru fight for their Kachikoshi's in Makuuchi and Seiro/Satoyama go for their Juryo KK's.

[Rocks 1,790]

3 minutes ago, Morty said:

My conspiracy theory is this. Kisenosato is famously genki, but he hurt himself at the start of the last basho and needed time off. So everyone rallied around and let him win the yusho so he could become a Yokozuna, but did so gently so as he wouldn't hurt himself further. They also let him win the first 12 of this basho to cement the illusion, then he pitched himself off the dohyo yesterday and "injured" himself (in reality an injury he has been carrying for three months). Because he is a Yokozuna he can now take a couple of basho off to heal and not have to lose his Ozeki status (that was the crucial part about making him Yokozuna). But here's the important bit. To seal the deal they got the previously injured and perennially kadoban Mongolian Ozeki to return to his ass kicking ways, beat all comers, then bust out a henka against the popular sekiwake seeking to return to Ozeki Kotoshogiku, so everyone will hate the Mongolians again (especially after it was Harumafuji who chucked Kisenosato off the dohyo to begin with), and to take the heat off Yokozuna Kisenosato for not winning the yusho for a second time in a row. Dead simple when you think about it.

I've seen pretzels less twisted than this. 

[Benihana 1,824]

1 minute ago, Rocks said:

I've seen pretzels less twisted than this. 

In real life Morty is a writer for WWE 

[Dwale 419]

4 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

Ura, Aoiyama, Ishiura, Tochinoshin, Endo and Daishomaru fight for their Kachikoshi's in Makuuchi and Seiro/Satoyama go for their Juryo KK's.

*deep breath* Ganbatte, Ura, Aoiyama, Tochinoshin, Endo, Daishomaru, Seiro to Satoyama! *faints*

And of course, the same for Kisenosato. The chances don't matter when it comes to cheering for my homey. 

[rzombie1988 157]

23 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

 

If Kise considered himself had no chance to win then why he climbed up the dohyo? Hoping his opponent to be gentle with him or give him a win? 

Kise didn't have a lot to lose today. He's already injured and lost the tournament, but you never know, maybe Kakuryu would have slipped or something.

[Kintamayama 42,781]

37 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

 I'd certainly expect some sort of reaction to that development.

Nishonoseki Oyakata hinted quite bluntly that if Terunofuji wins this basho and  the next one as well,  Yokozuna promotion criteria achieved notwithstanding, "this kind of sumo leaves a certain impression.."

[Kintamayama 42,781]

Kisenosato appeared because his not appearing at this critical stage has a direct influence on the identity of the yusho winner. In the past, we've had countless injured Y/O appear in the final days for that reason exactly  It's "the way." Once, Kotooushuu went kyujo on day 14 and his Oyakata was blasted for that. His explanation that Osh could hardly stand did not appease anyone.

I think it's the ONLY reason Kise is out there.

[Arn 24]

6 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Nishonoseki Oyakata hinted quite bluntly that if Terunofuji wins this basho and  the next one as well,  Yokozuna promotion criteria achieved notwithstanding, "this kind of sumo leaves a certain impression.."

I think that might be the best way to deal with it (making statements and threatening with consqences). If it really did effect a potential promotion I am sure others would be carefull in a similar situation.

[RaeucherLax 282]

Never liked Terunofuji very much, but have to admit I was impressed by what he did this Basho.... until now. 

What an a**

[rhyen 1,733]

49 minutes ago, Morty said:

My conspiracy theory is this. Kisenosato is famously genki, but he hurt himself at the start of the last basho and needed time off. So everyone rallied around and let him win the yusho so he could become a Yokozuna, but did so gently so as he wouldn't hurt himself further. They also let him win the first 12 of this basho to cement the illusion, then he pitched himself off the dohyo yesterday and "injured" himself (in reality an injury he has been carrying for three months). Because he is a Yokozuna he can now take a couple of basho off to heal and not have to lose his Ozeki status (that was the crucial part about making him Yokozuna). But here's the important bit. To seal the deal they got the previously injured and perennially kadoban Mongolian Ozeki to return to his ass kicking ways, beat all comers, then bust out a henka against the popular sekiwake seeking to return to Ozeki Kotoshogiku, so everyone will hate the Mongolians again (especially after it was Harumafuji who chucked Kisenosato off the dohyo to begin with), and to take the heat off Yokozuna Kisenosato for not winning the yusho for a second time in a row. Dead simple when you think about it.

44 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I've seen pretzels less twisted than this. 

40 minutes ago, Benihana said:

In real life Morty is a writer for WWE 

Geez, you guys are all missing the real head of this conspiracy to punish the kyokai for promoting Kisenosato to Yokozuna without dirtying his hands at all.

 

Spoiler

Hakuho, who is probably howling with laughter while watching the drama unfold for the last 2 days in his accommodation.

 

[just_some_guy 218]

I'm far less anti-henka than many, but to do it when you're tied for the lead and to crush Mr. Bumpy's Ozeki return with it was too much. I was loving the return of Terrorfuji instead of Terriblefuji up until this.

[rhyen 1,733]

The Schrodinger mark.

[Rocks 1,790]

Actually, I beginning to wonder if Giku didn't just  give up. Maybe Teru just decided he wouldn't meet a straight up tachi-ai as that is basically the only way for Giku to win at this point. So he blatantly signals that by telegraphing his intent to henka. The fake matta was just ridiculous, Giku wasn't even close to being set yet. Giku, realizing he has no shot to win just goes with the the straight up charge anyway to make Teru look bad as he knows he's lost anyway. I mean Giku flip was a little over the top.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Rocks

[Onibushou 61]

-Why is using a henka on the guy voted "most likely to fall for a blatant henka" suddenly considered clever? It seems more like common sense, if you're desperate enough to care about nothing but beating 'Giku. (Although I have a hard time imagining he loses that straight up, and Kise clearly isn't fit to fight anymore, so I don't know what he could be so desperate? for.)

-I have to wonder if Terunofuji would have still used the henka had Kisenosato withdrawn and completely handed the title over instead of theoretically staying in the running.

-Anyone else kind of hoping for a Kisenosato henka? Probably wouldn't work too well (once, much less twice), but I doubt straight-"forward" sumo (or just walking backwards out of the ring) will do him much good regardless.

[Benevolance 2,379]

In order for Kakuryu to have fallen for a Kise henka, Kise would have to assume that Kakuryu would be doing forward moving sumo. And against an obviously injured opponent, that's still no guarantee from Kakuryu. 

[Benihana 1,824]

6 minutes ago, Onibushou said:

-Anyone else kind of hoping for a Kisenosato henka? Probably wouldn't work too well (once, much less twice), but I doubt straight-"forward" sumo (or just walking backwards out of the ring) will do him much good regardless.

No, not Kisenosato.

[808morgan 797]

Did nobody go look there and see if any clay was out of place?? I mean if he didn't touch then there will be no mark, no monoii....? I can see calls that are hard to judge but this is a physical and you just have to look.

[Asashosakari 17,637]

7 minutes ago, Onibushou said:

-Anyone else kind of hoping for a Kisenosato henka? Probably wouldn't work too well (once, much less twice), but I doubt straight-"forward" sumo (or just walking backwards out of the ring) will do him much good regardless.

On the flipside, this is pretty much the opportunity to demonstrate why sumo "needs" Japanese yokozuna even if they're not the best but only one of the best, and even missing out on yusho as he probably will here. It's an expensive PR lesson given the yusho prize involved, but Kise has a lot to gain here from being a good sport and going through tomorrow's match in a dignified manner.

[Yubinhaad 11,046]

Some real sumo spirit was on display today from Hanakaze and Amamidake. They got locked in a yotsu-zumo battle, and after 4 minutes 12 seconds a halt was called by the shimpan, who ordered a ni-ban-go torinaoshi. In the second attempt, 46-year-old Hanakaze got an uwate grip and managed to force Amamidake out for an okuridashi win, securing his kachi-koshi as a result. Not a henka in sight.

Pictures and (linked) videos.

Spoiler

Shikimori Seisuke stops the two weary warriors after more than four minutes.

The ni-ban-go torinaoshi banner is displayed twice, first after the original bout is stopped and then again before the rikishi return to the dohyo. (I'm only showing one as the pictures are virtually identical, obviously)

Hanakaze sends Amamidake out of the ring to secure the 82nd kachi-koshi of his career, 8th on the all-time list.

Original bout

Ni-ban-go torinaoshi

It's the second basho in a row in which a ni-ban-go torinaoshi has happened early in the day, in January it was Kyonosato who eventually prevailed over Daishiryu on Day 12.