Basho Talk ** Haru Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[Kishinoyama 582]

I find it interesting that some of the comments here think the henka was planned. I think it was planned but only AFTER the matta. In other words, "You want to play games, I'll show you a game". Baruto did the same think to Kisenosato after a matta and I've seen others do the same thing.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

5 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

Henka is part of the game, this move was clever by Terunofuji.

Clever, no doubt, but it's the type of thing that will only serve to reinforce the old stereotype that certain rikishi (to not use the "M" word) are only there for the paycheck. Ozeki and yokozuna have henkaed before, but the sheer over-the-top blatantness combined with the already downbeat atmosphere after yesterday's Kise injuries has probably left a particularly bitter taste this time.

9 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

At worst, Terunofuji will get a 13-2D, which would mean the beginning of a yokozuna run, if he wins the yusho in May. This could lead to as historic yokozuna run as 5 yokozuna is a thing that never occurred in sumo (if I remember well)

They've been getting very flexible with the banzuke-making in recent years. I wouldn't be super-shocked to see the dreaded character clause in yokozuna considerations make a surprise return here. Terunofuji would be well-advised to show some proper humility and contrition in his likely yusho interview.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

20 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I was trying to imply that his head being down really doesn't make a difference here. There's no way to defend against this type of premeditated henka from a much taller opponent except with a completely defensive Kyokushuzan-style standup tachiai. Blaming the loser for not being reactive or alert enough somewhat misses the point - Terunofuji could IMHO do that successfully against almost everybody if they don't specifically prepare for it.

Here we'll have to agree to disagree. There are rikishi who do somehow manage to watch where they are going, and respond to henka attempts from their opponents. Not always successfully, but not caught completely unaware. Blind chargers expect blind luck. There are enough skilled rikishi to make that proposition somewhat risky. And nowhere will you find a more flagrant gambler in this situation as Kotoshogiku.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Otokonoyama
some l/r confusion

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Just now, Kishinoyama said:

I find it interesting that some of the comments here think the henka was planned. I think it was planned but only AFTER the matta. In other words, "You want to play games, I'll show you a game". Baruto did the same think to Kisenosato after a matta and I've seen others do the same thing.

"Play games"? Planned or not, that matta was 100% caused by Terunofuji. Kotoshogiku was barely starting to get set when Teru shot forward.

[d_golem 213]

I'll be in the minority here and would like to say I was laughing so hard when the henka happened. Thought it was brilliant! Looking back at Teru's serious face when he was sitting beside the dohyo, to his pumped up demeanour, the matta, and finally the henka, it is clear that he planned the whole thing way in advance and he was ready for everything thrown his way from disgruntled people if the ploy was successfully pulled off. Teru won fairly, squarely, legally, and with damn good acting too. I can only applaud his determination to go through with this when he knows what will happen and accept the consequences. It shows that this Yusho means the world to him. Giku, well, if he can't see a henka bait and switch after all that, then sadly he's no longer of ozeki quality. May he persevere like Toyonoshima and Aminishiki as there's no shame in competing as long as the body still allows.

I for one am looking very much forward to a long, healthy Yokozuna Terunofuji reign, who can delight with his sheer power, and dumbfound with sheer unpredictability.

[Tiger Tanaka 222]

So underwhelming for the fans. Two of the strongest in sumo, one fighting with his career on the line, and then a henka. I have mixed feelings on henkas, but how that one played out was just so anti-climactic. I felt that could have been an intense 20-30 second match, but we'll never know. In my short time watching sumo, I haven't seen a losing opponent not bow. Geek's stare at Terror, with not even the slightest nod of the head, was very telling. How frequently does that happen between two rikishi where one just no-sells the acknowledgement of defeat?

[ryafuji 807]

No bow whatsoever from Giku afterwards. He was clearly livid. 

[Dapeng 232]

Since henka is so much hated, why it is not banned? Because if it is banned,  sumo will not be sumo anyone. 

Tachiai is unique to sumo. Just imagine how the tachiai would be if henka is banned: rikishi just need to keep low and rush forward with their eyes tightly closed. I believe the rikishi would wear steel helmet so they could clash into each other's head like bull fight. 

[Atenzan 1,074]

17 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Clever, no doubt, but it's the type of thing that will only serve to reinforce the old stereotype that certain rikishi (to not use the "M" word) are only there for the paycheck.

 

Haven't heard that word since that conspiracy theorist was banned. Fun times. 

[Nantonoyama 246]

Of course I was happy about Terunofuji's win, but I would have prefered a long tough bout, with strong action. However this is before everything else a sport (unless you are considering it under the traditional shinto religious side), and this is not a show. It is not meant to entertain people before all. If it does, this is great, but this is not the main purpose.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

9 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

Of course I was happy about Terunofuji's win, but I would have prefered a long tough bout, with strong action. However this is before everything else a sport (unless you are considering it under the traditional shinto religious side), and this is not a show. It is not meant to entertain people before all. If it does, this is great, but this is not the main purpose.

I'd argue that the main purpose of any professionally promoted spectator sport is in fact to entertain the audience, even though many people who watch "for the sport" don't like to hear that. It's borne out by the fact that professional sports typically have very few qualms about adjusting the rules of the competition if the audience collectively considers something to be undesirable (or even just plain unentertaining).

The only functional difference to theatrics like professional wrestling is that professional sports leave the realization of the entertainment potential entirely to the competitors. But the framework for that potential is constantly under public debate, at least implicitly. That's why the standard "henka is legal, that makes it perfectly okay" argument totally misses the mark.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Dapeng 232]

Kise's sumo today is pathetic. He definitely should withdraw. If you can't do sumo, just don't do it !  

[Dwale 419]

Feeling some genuine dread that Terunofuji might throw Kisenosato down on his injured shoulder. T.T

[Rocks 1,807]

12 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

Of course I was happy about Terunofuji's win, but I would have prefered a long tough bout, with strong action. However this is before everything else a sport (unless you are considering it under the traditional shinto religious side), and this is not a show. It is not meant to entertain people before all. If it does, this is great, but this is not the main purpose.

I'd agree with @Asashosakari but would add that it's main purpose is entertainment and martial arts competition above all else serve to entertain our most basic instincts and give them an outlet. This is why something like Teru's henka in such a situation stinks so bad, it denies the catharsis for the people watching. It is in a sense a theft from the people considering the money invested. People don't seem to mind it in sumo as there are bound to be some good matches to make up for it but think about how this would be if that were the only match of the day. Very few would be okay with Teru's henka. Aminishiki and Kotoyuki  can get away with this because very few would be paying to watch them alone anyway. To have someone in competition for the championship facing a guy, whose well liked and facing demotion or retirement after a long career,  he was heavily favored to beat anyway pull something like this? Bad. Bad for fans and bad for sumo.

[Rocks 1,807]

6 minutes ago, Dwale said:

Feeling some genuine dread that Terunofuji might throw Kisenosato down on his injured shoulder. T.T

It will be a gentle push out just like with Kakuryu. These guys can sense when a guy is putting up little resistance and Kise won't be putting much up.

[HenryK 38]

53 minutes ago, Tiger Tanaka said:

So underwhelming for the fans. Two of the strongest in sumo, one fighting with his career on the line, and then a henka. I have mixed feelings on henkas, but how that one played out was just so anti-climactic. I felt that could have been an intense 20-30 second match, but we'll never know. In my short time watching sumo, I haven't seen a losing opponent not bow. Geek's stare at Terror, with not even the slightest nod of the head, was very telling. How frequently does that happen between two rikishi where one just no-sells the acknowledgement of defeat?

Underwhelming for you perhaps, but as you can see in this thread there are sumo fans who enjoy a well-executed henka and consider it part of the game. I am one of them.

[Arn 24]

I know the henka is allowed by the rules, but come on! There has to be a place and time at least. Not only did Terunofuji crush Kotoshogikus hope of returning to Ozeki, at the same time he probably decided (if it wasnt already) the yusho since he now will face his only threat, the badly injured Kisenosato on the last day. I hope it will come back and bite Terunofuji some day...

I do think it would be interesting to know the exact nature of Kisenosato's injury, but maybe they will not let it come out.

Kyokutaisei got a KK at his highest rank ever, Juryo 6, after defeating three strong opponents in Onosho, Toyohibeki and Oyanagi in the three last days.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Yesterday I thought Terunofuji would henka Kotoshōgiku. But then I told myself, “no way, he’s too proud to not show proper sumō”. Guess I was wrong. Personally, I think this says a lot, lot, lot about Terunofuji, and it’s nothing good. He had already won the yūshō. There is no chance in hell Kisenosato will get it after that injury. Is he that much of a coward, and doubts his abilities that much that he can’t defeat a one-armed Kisenosato twice (worst case scenario), or even just beat Kotoshōgiku straight on? It was a really pathetic show of character from Terunofuji, in my opinion. I will no longer cheer for his yokozuna promotion. I’m glad Kotoshōgiku didn’t even give him a nod after losing.

The cherry on top would be if he further injures Kisenosato tomorrow.

Edited March 25, 2017 by ALAKTORN

[CT3* 331]

1 hour ago, d_golem said:

I'll be in the minority here and would like to say I was laughing so hard when the henka happened

Same here. I was literally howling. The matta was so weak that the Geekster should have been a bit wary of the henka. The look he gave Terunofuji after the bout was priceless. And he didn't even pretend to bow.

Edited March 25, 2017 by CT3*

[Dwale 419]

2 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Yesterday I thought Terunofuji would henka Kotoshōgiku. But then I told myself, “no way, he’s too proud to not show proper sumō”. Guess I was wrong. Personally, I think this says a lot, lot, lot about Terunofuji, and it’s nothing good. He had already won the yūshō. There is no chance in hell Kisenosato will get it after that injury. Is he that much of a coward, and doubts his abilities that much that he can’t defeat a one-armed Kisenosato twice (worst case scenario), or even just beat Kotoshōgiku straight on? It was a really pathetic show of character from Terunofuji, in my opinion. I will no longer cheer for his yokozuna promotion. I’m glad Kotoshōgiku didn’t even give him a nod after losing.

The cherry on top would be if he further injures Kisenosato tomorrow.

If he does, no amount of contrition could ever make me cheer for him again.

[Nantonoyama 246]

41 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I'd argue that the main purpose of any professionally promoted spectator sport is in fact to entertain the audience, even though many people who watch "for the sport" don't like to hear that. It's borne out by the fact that professional sports typically have very few qualms about adjusting the rules of the competition if the audience collectively considers something to be undesirable (or even just plain unentertaining).

The only functional difference to theatrics like professional wrestling is that professional sports leave the realization of the entertainment potential entirely to the competitors. But the framework for that potential is constantly under public debate, at least implicitly. That's why the standard "henka is legal, that makes it perfectly okay" argument totally misses the mark.

I would rather say that entertaining the audience is the consequence of the professionalization. As it must be fun for the people to watch, for the sponsors to come, for the wrestlers to be paid. In this frame, if the audience dislike henkas so much, they would have been prohibited altogether, as they could have a loss of income money as a consequence. Perhaps in the future it will be forbidden, but then some people will have to define what is and what is not a henka (which is not an easy business).

One of the pleasures in enjoying a nice bout is the fact that this nice bout could have been not fought because of the will of one of the two wrestlers.

They have been henkas in musubi-no-ichiban of senshurakus, on kettei-sen (even makuuchi)...

[Asashosakari 18,786]

21 minutes ago, HenryK said:

Underwhelming for you perhaps, but as you can see in this thread there are sumo fans who enjoy a well-executed henka and consider it part of the game. I am one of them.

I enjoy a well-executed henka quite a bit, too, but it strikes me as a bit myopic to simply go "well done, chap!" at every instance of them and ignore the context in which they happen.

The kosho system was chugging along just fine despite complaints about its supposed abuse since (at least) the mid-1990s, but when said abuse began to involve - at least in perception - the top-rankers nearly a decade later, anti-kosho opinions quickly gained critical mass and the system was torn down in short order. Now, I hardly expect henka to be outlawed anytime soon, but if the perception becomes that "I don't give a crap what anyone thinks" henka have become too prevalent in high-profile bouts (and rightly or wrongly, Terunofuji is adding to an impression already created by Harumafuji and to a lesser degree Kakuryu and Hakuho here), I'd certainly expect some sort of reaction to that development. And given the likely inability to attack henka use directly, I'm afraid it could result in a more generalized anti-foreign rikishi backlash. 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Asashosakari

[ALAKTORN 346]

In other news… is it just me who thought Takekaze stepped out instead of Sōkokurai? When he did that side jump I saw sand being shot up.

Also I’m surprised Hakuhō never tried coming back into the basho, I didn’t think his injury was that serious? Does anyone know if he’s better?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

To me, it is very much a 試合 versus 勝負 situation, but I have difficulty expressing it succinctly (or at all) in English.

[Dapeng 232]

4 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Yesterday I thought Terunofuji would henka Kotoshōgiku. But then I told myself, “no way, he’s too proud to not show proper sumō”. Guess I was wrong. Personally, I think this says a lot, lot, lot about Terunofuji, and it’s nothing good. He had already won the yūshō. There is no chance in hell Kisenosato will get it after that injury. Is he that much of a coward, and doubts his abilities that much that he can’t defeat a one-armed Kisenosato twice (worst case scenario), or even just beat Kotoshōgiku straight on? It was a really pathetic show of character from Terunofuji, in my opinion. I will no longer cheer for his yokozuna promotion. I’m glad Kotoshōgiku didn’t even give him a nod after losing.

The cherry on top would be if he further injures Kisenosato tomorrow.

Kise refused to withdraw, which means he thought he still could fight decently and still had chance to beat Kakuryu. Naturally, Kakuryu or any other rikishi who will face Kise should take Kise seriously and do not underestimate Kise. If Kise did get further injury, he only has himself to blame. 

If Kise considered himself had no chance to win then why he climbed up the dohyo? Hoping his opponent to be gentle with him or give him a win?