Basho Talk ** Haru Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[rzombie1988 159]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Because the whole idea that an "ozeki run" consists of exactly three tournaments plainly doesn't apply to those cases. In Wakahaguro's days the promotion criteria were a lot more obscure - you can find rikishi who got promoted with 28 wins in their last three pre-promotion tournaments, while others were not promoted with as many as 33 wins. That should make it obvious that these promotion decisions weren't actually based on three tournament results. As for Kaiketsu's promotion, Bumpkin already pointed out the exceptional circumstances. There is no use in comparing current ozeki candidates to Wakahaguro and Kaiketsu.

So, yes, theoretically they could promote Takayasu after this basho, and it would be based on his last two (not three) results - or if you want to go that far, perhaps on his last five. The problem with that idea is that there's absolutely no pressing reason to do it: Takayasu is not a veteran with a history of close misses in promotion opportunities, he's not even much of a regular in the sanyaku ranks yet, and there's no particular need for an additional ozeki at this time. There's not even any potential feelgood story here. The only box that could be ticked by Takayasu's recent tournament run is "finished with a yusho"; I highly doubt that's enough.

I even agree that something like 11-4, 10-5, 7-8, 11-4, 13-2 Y in consecutive sanyaku tournaments would be a perfectly fine demonstration of ozeki capabilities, but it makes little sense to look at 40- or 60-year-old situations to justify that opinion.

If you can't be consistent in rules and the consequences of those rules, the rules lose value. It's really important to make set in stone rules and follow them or else you run into problems.

I don't think there needs to be any reasoning for promotions or for not promoting people. It should be based strictly on numbers and titles alone. That's fair and there's no judgment involved.

I also don't like this idea of "we have enough (blank) right now, we don't need any more". or "we don't have any (blank), we need one". If someone isn't good enough to meet the requirements, they shouldn't be promoted.

I can promise you that Takayasu and his fans/friends/family think we could use another Ozeki now named Takayasu.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by rzombie1988

[Morningstar 118]

3 hours ago, Fukurou said:

Someone who has more direct interaction with the Japanese than I would have a better idea, but I think this inactivity may be a cultural thing - if it's not specifically your job, don't get involved and stay out of the way. (don't bring attention to yourself)

It appeared to me that everyone was looking for someone to tell them what to do. The first guy who checked on him kept looking for someone to tell him what to do (not that I'd know what to do if sent out to get someone twice my size back on his feet). It's only when the older guy (bottom of the video - he stopped to take his shoes off) came up that anything began to happen. Perhaps an oyakata, perhaps his oyakata?

I am very surprised they do not have a doctor or other medical professional "ring side" just for these situations. That is pretty much a requirement for any Combat Sport these days. 

[Rocks 1,809]

7 minutes ago, Morningstar said:

I am very surprised they do not have a doctor or other medical professional "ring side" just for these situations. That is pretty much a requirement for any Combat Sport these days. 

Sumo is kind of different though. Other combat sports mostly have doctors on hand to determine if the athlete can continue. That isn't really an option in sumo. They aren't coming out for another round. Even in boxing they will rarely treat a serious stoppage injury in the ring. Only if it's immediately life threatening. They take the athlete to the locker room for everything else and usually they just wrap them up well enough to get them to a hospital..

They should have something in place quickly for transporting these huge guys from the dohyo to the back where they can be treated though.

[Asojima 2,874]

20 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

Before the whole thing falls apart let me just put a reminder here that before the basho on NHK I predicted a Takayasu yusho

My day 1 pick was a Takayasu/Terunofuji toss up.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Lots of injuries… Hakuhō out, Kise and Takayasu doing great. My money’s on Kise. He’s looking even fatter to me, but that doesn’t seem to be a hindrance for him.

[d_golem 213]

54 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Lots of injuries… Hakuhō out, Kise and Takayasu doing great. My money’s on Kise. He’s looking even fatter to me, but that doesn’t seem to be a hindrance for him.

Nah, that's just his newlyfound Yokozuna auro boosting his ring presence by around 10.25% I reckon...

[Morty 1,505]

2 hours ago, Rocks said:

Sumo is kind of different though. Other combat sports mostly have doctors on hand to determine if the athlete can continue. That isn't really an option in sumo. They aren't coming out for another round. Even in boxing they will rarely treat a serious stoppage injury in the ring. Only if it's immediately life threatening. They take the athlete to the locker room for everything else and usually they just wrap them up well enough to get them to a hospital..

They should have something in place quickly for transporting these huge guys from the dohyo to the back where they can be treated though.

The issue is also that sumo isn't really a sport, not in the traditional sense. Yes there is competition, yes it is legitimate, yes people get hurt. But sumo is far more than a sport - it is a religious activity, an ancient tradition, a cultural event, a representation of Japanese culture for the rest of the world. The problem for us westerners is that we tend to think of it only as a sporting event, and lots of stuff that is based in the tradition and religion and culture seem to make no sense. But if you can't think of it as a cultural event so much of it will seem confusing, and it will get frustrating. I just think to myself, "hey it is sumo - it isn't supposed to make sense" and that seems to work anytime they do something that sems completely contrary 

[Sakura 1,495]

7 hours ago, Rocks said:

Yeah, closest it:

Takanohana	Futagoyama	1997.11	Y1e	14-1 D
Takanonami	Futagoyama	1997.11	O1w	14-1 Y

No wonder really. Futagoyama-beya had 1 Yokozuna, 2 Ozeki, 1 Sekiwake and a Komusubi that basho. Makes it much easier to get good results that way.

[d_golem 213]

Wow Takayasu...Soukokurai got absolutely no chance after that BOOM kinda tachiai!

 

Will he be the hairiest Ozeki ever?

Edited March 18, 2017 by d_golem

[Fukurou 534]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

The issue is also that sumo isn't really a sport, not in the traditional sense. Yes there is competition, yes it is legitimate, yes people get hurt. But sumo is far more than a sport - it is a religious activity, an ancient tradition, a cultural event, a representation of Japanese culture for the rest of the world. The problem for us westerners is that we tend to think of it only as a sporting event, and lots of stuff that is based in the tradition and religion and culture seem to make no sense. But if you can't think of it as a cultural event so much of it will seem confusing, and it will get frustrating. I just think to myself, "hey it is sumo - it isn't supposed to make sense" and that seems to work anytime they do something that sems completely contrary 

None of which explains why they can't have medical personnel near the dohyo for this cultural activity in which participants routinely blow out knees, dislocate joints, become knocked unconscious, suffer facial fractures, and various other injuries.

[Jyuunomori 226]

Poor Sokokurai...

Takayasu looks like he could beat anyone. He could have beaten 10 of today's Kakuryuu's

 

[Dwale 419]

Wow, yeah, I think Terunofuji...it's not like that's the first time he's lifted someone over the tawara, but just...wow. o.o;

[d_golem 213]

22 minutes ago, Dwale said:

Wow, yeah, I think Terunofuji...it's not like that's the first time he's lifted someone over the tawara, but just...wow. o.o;

Those flailing legs of Takekaze's....

Edited March 18, 2017 by d_golem

[Dwale 419]

Terunofuji's impending hernia aside, some honorable mentions:

I have to thank both Endo and Chiyoshoma, that was really a team effort to make me giggle like that. Great job, guys, y'all should do manzai. How the hell do you miss with a throw after you already grabbed someone? And then Endo was just kinda like "Yoink." lol Good times.

And Chiyonokuni, uhhhhhh... No idea what to say, but I just can't not mention that. Whatever it was... Guess it was a bit like seeing a hippopotamus riding a unicycle: you have to laugh, but it's still impressive.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

That was a very entertaining day of sumo!

Kise showing calm speed today and looking unstoppable, and I love the way Takayasu's putting everything into his tachi-ai.

Lots of stuff that made me laugh today, like Chiyonokuni's tawara ballet and Teru's tsuridashi, and Moti's comments!

No one's mentioned Ishiura's shitatehineri yet. I thought it was beautiful. He does it really well given the opportunity.

[Arn 24]

3 hours ago, Fukurou said:

None of which explains why they can't have medical personnel near the dohyo for this cultural activity in which participants routinely blow out knees, dislocate joints, become knocked unconscious, suffer facial fractures, and various other injuries.

It kind of does. It is not part of the tradition, it is not how sumo is done. It has never been like that before, so why would it be needed now.

Not that I personally would have anything against it (quite the contrary), but for these kind of injuries I dont think it matters much. It would mostly be needed for head-injuries or bad bone breaks. And they at least will use a wheel-chair if the wrestler can not walk.

[Benihana 1,937]

8 minutes ago, Arn said:

It kind of does. It is not part of the tradition, it is not how sumo is done. It has never been like that before, so why would it be needed now.

Not that I personally would have anything against it (quite the contrary), but for these kind of injuries I dont think it matters much. It would mostly be needed for head-injuries or bad bone breaks. And they at least will use a wheel-chair if the wrestler can not walk.

The problem is not, that there is no immediate medical treatment, the problem is, that nobody seems to care. There is a guys on the ground, screaming in pain...he should stop screaming and walk it off. Moments like these make me really angry and show us the contemptous side of the japanese culture. I don't know, what the shimpan on the right said at about 3:35, but his gestures look like "get that trash off my dohyo, we have a schedule here"...

[Arn 24]

58 minutes ago, Benihana said:

The problem is not, that there is no immediate medical treatment, the problem is, that nobody seems to care. There is a guys on the ground, screaming in pain...he should stop screaming and walk it off. Moments like these make me really angry and show us the contemptous side of the japanese culture. I don't know, what the shimpan on the right said at about 3:35, but his gestures look like "get that trash off my dohyo, we have a schedule here"...

Well, that seems more like a critique of the japanese culture than of how the situation in itself was handled. If that is how their culture is, then I dont see any problem with it. It annoys you because your are used to another reaction, but why would the japanese take that into consideration?

I dont really think that sort of critique from a western perspective (i presume) is very interesting. Apparently that is not how they do things, and the japanese "differentness" is, besides the wrestling, what I think is attractive with sumo.

[Benihana 1,937]

3 minutes ago, Arn said:

Well, that seems more like a critique of the japanese culture than of how the situation in itself was handled. If that is how their culture is, then I dont see any problem with it. It annoys you because your are used to another reaction, but why would the japanese take that into consideration?

I dont really think that sort of critique from a western perspective (i presume) is very interesting. Apparently that is not how they do things, and the japanese "differentness" is, besides the wrestling, what I think is attractive with sumo.

That's not a "western" perspective, that's a human perspective. Do you find it attractive, when a rikishi dies from hazing, too? Hey, it's their "culture", so what?

[Dwale 419]

Having medical technicians at ringside would be "unsightly." Remember, you'll be reprimanded for wearing the wrong color of brace on your injured limb. Sumo is deeply concerned not only with tradition, but with aesthetics. 

[Arn 24]

57 minutes ago, Benihana said:

That's not a "western" perspective, that's a human perspective. Do you find it attractive, when a rikishi dies from hazing, too? Hey, it's their "culture", so what?

Apparently not, since the japanese reaction is different from yours.

And no I do not, but sure, I definitely think it came about as part of the traditional japanese culture which is strong in sumo.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Arn

[Tiger Tanaka 226]

Takayasu looks well on his way to an Ozeki promotion (whether it be after this Basho or the May Basho). You figure, without having to face Hakuho in week 2, or Kise at all, his big two opponents going into the second week are Kakuryu and Harumafuji. A 12-13 win Basho would mean Takayasu only would need 9-10 wins in May to get his 33. I think it's most likely we see him make his Ozeki debut in July, but he certainly is performing like one now.

[Asashosakari 19,669]

5 minutes ago, Tiger Tanaka said:

Takayasu looks well on his way to an Ozeki promotion (whether it be after this Basho or the May Basho). You figure, without having to face Hakuho in week 2, or Kise at all, his big two opponents going into the second week are Kakuryu and Harumafuji. A 12-13 win Basho would mean Takayasu only would need 9-10 wins in May to get his 33. I think it's most likely we see him make his Ozeki debut in July, but he certainly is performing like one now.

10-win minimum in May. They're not going to promote somebody who fails to reach double digits when it matters.

[Jakusotsu 6,050]

1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

They're not going to promote somebody who fails to reach double digits when it matters.

Didn't the NSK publish an excellent cookbook for preparing crow dishes recently?

[Asashosakari 19,669]

5 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Didn't the NSK publish an excellent cookbook for preparing crow dishes recently?

Was it the one with a foreword by Ikioi?

Edited March 19, 2017 by Asashosakari
Yes, a foreword...