rzombie1988

What happened with Homarenishiki?

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1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

I saw all the Homarenshiki's bouts on video.  He just didn't have the speed, athleticism, and aggression to go anywhere.  Likely both Homarenshiki and the beya realized it and came to sensible, mutual decision.   If he had unmistakable potential, I'd think that more efforts would have been made to keep him going by everyone interested.  
 

He may have been forced out but such is life in sport where they allow only limited foreign player.   That limited "spot" is important to beya's success, prestige, etc..   The foreigner has to be exceptional to make it worthwhile for the beya to apply its resource.   Otherwise, the pressure will be on the foreigner to vacate the spot.   This is true for other sport, not just sumo.   E.g, in J-League soccer where there is a limit of 3 (I think) foreign players, if they don't perform immediately, they won't last too long in the team.  The team will not wait to replace them with other foreign players.   Homarenshiki was given an ample time to show his potential, given his status as an "import" player.   For him to stay, I thought he had to rifle through the lower division and into juryo in short time.

This is low grade revisionist garbage. Why do people who know nothing about this situation continue to post fiction as if it's reality?  Can this thread be closed until additional information is publicly released? 

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5 hours ago, Sumozumo said:

This is low grade revisionist garbage. Why do people who know nothing about this situation continue to post fiction as if it's reality?  Can this thread be closed until additional information is publicly released? 

The post should not have been open in the first place given that this was already discussed in similar threads.  If you have read my earlier reply, you know I was being sarcastic about what I said.   But this kind of thread naturally leads to subjective opinions, guesses, etc..   If you object to such, then many of the threads in this forum and others should be closed.   No need to overreact.   If you don't like how a thread is going, you don't ask for it to be closed.   You do what others do.  You ignore it or move on.  

 

PS - calling someone's post as garbage is not something you should be proud of.   Discuss the merits of a post instead of being a know it all a$$.  

Edited by robnplunder
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35 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

I'll accept that challenge.

Here's the issue. You saw a few low-res videos and from those drew wide ranging conclusions. You didn't see the training and improvements made daily. The breaking down of the only style of sumo he had known and the complete construction of a style he had never used. Injuries are part of sumo. I won't dispute that but when serious ones come right at the start of your career and allow you little chance to learn or develop it's a very different matter.

Am I biased by being the one who put him in sumo? Sure but so what? I'm working in the that world and seeing rikishi train on a daily basis. I've also actually done sumo (badly) myself for ten years. In my biased but experienced opinion he was a sure fire sekitori, raw as anything but with a ceiling higher than most prospects. Maybe he would have been another Tochinowaka, maybe an Akebono but the potential was there.

Whatever the merits of your sumo analysis, that comment is willfully obtuse. You know nothing Jon Snow.

That's a good response, one I can respect and understand.   Similar to you, I also have trained since I was 10 years old in boxing (not sumo) by a national team coach bent on making me a world champion.  I was ranked nationally in US at one point.  But I retired at tender age of 21 after realizing that I don't have what it takes despite being athletic, and being trained by an expert.   I also took up many sports and know a bit about potential.  So, don't take me for an ignorant fool when it comes to sport potential.   You and others who were in Homarenshiki's corner may be biased.  You admit that, and I believe it based on what I read in this forum.   I watched all the videos of Homarenshiki posted by Kinta san and drew my own conclusion.   He may had a potential but what I saw was someone who was too slow, and lacking aggression.  More importantly, I didn't see a killer instinct needed to reach the top in a combative sport.   In some bouts that he won, he even looked (to me) apologetic after doing so.   I don't think "fighting" is in his nature.   Perhaps, you know he does.   

What I don't like is people commenting on another's response and then making personal comment about it.   Like "you know nothing" or even worse.   I may not know enough but my observation and opinion shouldn't be subject to snide remark.   

 

Edited by robnplunder
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I would personally like to see more respect shown, both to those we watch and comment on and to each other. I was taught that "If you can't find anything good (or at least constructive) to say, don't say anything".

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3 hours ago, John Gunning said:

Well your unfounded speculation about the nature of Brodi's fighting spirit and exit from sumo is far more personal than a catchphrase from a TV show. If you dish it out don't be surprised when others shoot back.

You call it unfounded speculation. I call it my opinion and I drew it from watching the videos.  That kind of observation and comment are common in discussion forums like this.   That's what forums do.   Even in this forum, this happens all the time.   This is not a forum or thread that you only state the hard facts.   Does anyone really know what is in someone's heart?  No.  Can someone make a comment on one's fighting spirit after watching video of his bouts?   Yes, it happens all the time in these threads, and forums everywhere.   I presented my opinion, not personal attacks on fellow members.  A couple of you didn't like it and led to personal comments.   All for what?  B/c I didn't see the same potential as a few fans of Homarenshki did?   Here's the hard fact.  Almost all athletes with "potential" don't make it for many reasons.  

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2 hours ago, John Gunning said:

If that's your opinion then fair enough. You are entitled to think whatever you want, but I'm telling you, as someone who knows what happened, that it's wrong.

 

 

That's fair enough.   Cheers.

 

( BTW, in my earlier post, the national team coach who trained me in boxing?   He was my own dad.   He saw a lot more potential than I can deliver.   I think he was too close to me to see that my potential was just that, a potential.  He was blinded by his desire but I knew my limits.  )

Edited by robnplunder

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On 12/6/2016 at 14:48, robnplunder said:

Likely both Homarenshiki and the beya realized it and came to sensible, mutual decision. 

I've been studiously trying to avoid commenting because I think we basically know what happened based on reading between the lines of what has been put out to the public so why beat a dead horse? But, the idea that any sort of sensible, mutual decision regarding his sumo abilities and future was ever reached here is not only not likely it's pretty preposterous. Even if you think he had no potential there are plenty of guys who suck ass that are kept on for years and years in sumo. Bouncing around the very lowest divisions forever. Homarenishiki steadily advanced up the ladder for the very short 1 year he was actually on the dohyo. His progress would be more than satisfactory for any Oyakata. In fact, had he not been injured and left he would certainly have become the highest ranked rikishi in his heya within a basho or 2.

 

As far as his potential I am no expert but I watched his bouts too. I saw a lot of potential. In watching lower divisions bouts you see a lot of guys who rely on one thing, be it height or weight or speed, etc, and their matches are over quickly as what they have works or it doesn't. They may win some but  then hit the wall once they become known. They don't learn, they don't adapt. Homarenishiki did not seem fazed when his obvious height advantage didn't work. He struggled and kept pushing for a win. Like this bout:

Losing from the start, pushed to the bales, he still eeks out a win. And this is with barely any real sumo experience yet. That is potential.

As far as timidity and lack of aggression I would not find that surprising giving being alone in a new situation in a foreign country while being bullied with a virtually absent Oyakata. It does not mean that is his true nature or potential. Had he not been in this heya with what is obviously a lousy Oyakata I think this story may have ended very differently IMHO. 

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3 hours ago, DAYVkaos said:

Sorry if I offend any one with my comments. 

Actually pretty well said.

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Quote

Like Musashikuni and Wakaichirō, NorthAmericanSumo.com has a page dedicated to the match history of Homarenishiki Yasokichi, also known as Brodi Henderson.  In this post, I continue the trend of backing up some of these videos in gif form, which I also hope draws traffic to the original YouTube videos.  The gifs below are Brodi’s mae-zumo matches in the Natsu Basho 2015.  While Brodi was brand new to Japanese professional sumo, he had already beat Byamba to win the openweight division at the U.S. Sumo Open.  So, he wasn’t entirely naive to the sport of sumo.

Before continuing, I want to make three notes...

https://northamericansumo.com/2019/01/05/brodi-henderson-in-the-natsu-basho-2015/

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On 20/01/2017 at 20:33, DAYVkaos said:

....Will he say anything? nothing that will float on the internet. Not any time soon.

Right! I still follow Brodi on Facebook and he posted a memory in March of last year from March of 2015. It was a photo taken when he was a rikishi. It was captioned, "A night out with the Nishikido boys". Needless to say, three years later, his feelings regarding the "Nishikido boys" have changed and he expressed them in no uncertain terms in that post.

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As Kishinoyama stated above, Brodi, (who goes by the name Brodik Henderson on Facebook), posted a memory in March of last year from March of 2015.  Under a photo of him with the other rikishi of his heya taken in Osaka is a caption.  It reads in full, "Night out with the Nishikido Boys!  Great time with good friends".  However, above the photo is his quote from March 5, 2018 --- "Good times with some of the worst most racist hateful stupid cowardly humans I've ever met in my life".  One of the commenters asked for the story behind the comments and another commenter said if he (Brodik) would write a book about his time in Japan, he would buy it.  Brodik did not reply to the comments.  This is the closest I have heard about what happened and it's from the horse's mouth.

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Reading the above really makes me think that one of the reforms needed in sumo is to be able to transfer heya, even if only in extraordinary circumstances. The NSK should use its discretion and allow exceptions. There must be countless stories of young rikishi giving up on sumo only because they didn’t fit in at their particular stable, not because they weren’t good enough or didn’t like the sport. Given sumo’s ongoing recruitment crisis you’d think they’d want to retain the people they do manage to sign up.

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2 hours ago, Churaumi said:

I wonder if Turbold had any trouble like this.

He may or may have not.   But the major difference between the two is one is from Canada and the other from Mongolia.   A person coming from Western world would have more difficult time adjusting to Japanese version of "ethnic hospitality."  

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And someone also started as the highest ranked rikishi in the heya. Can’t have hurt.

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26 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

And someone also started as the highest ranked rikishi in the heya. Can’t have hurt.

He also studied in Japan and so presumably was a lot more integrated into the culture than Brodie, fresh from Canada and with, I presume, not the best Japanese language skills.

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Both foreigners but very different cases. Turbold was an elite and highly respected amateur who had been in the Japanese high school and university sumo system for years, in programs that John Gunning has called as tough or tougher than many heya, so I imagine he was much more accustomed to that type of environment and was able to communicate , understand, and fit in with those around him at a higher level.

He was also the highest ranked and probably most capable rikishi in the stable right off the bat, and perhaps given what happened with Brodi there had already been some measures or warnings to/within the heya regarding bullying.....weren't there several rikishi who left the stable following the incident?

Still though, I wasn't there to see how each were treated...

Edited by Katooshu

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1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

Both foreigners but very different cases. Turbold was an elite and highly respected amateur who had been in the Japanese high school and university sumo system for years, in programs that John Gunning has called as tough or tougher than many heya, so I imagine he was much more accustomed to that type of environment and was able to communicate , understand, and fit in with those around him at a higher level. He was also the highest rated and probably most capable rikishi in the stable right off the bat, and perhaps given what happened with Brodi there had already been some measures or warnings to/within the heya regarding bullying.....weren't there several rikishi who left the stable following the incident?

Still though, I wasn't there to see how each were treated...

We should remember that Turbold also came into ozumo as makushita tsukedashi, so he was automatically heya-gashira (number one deshi) the second he arrived. He was literally untouchable by his fellow trainees in terms of hazing and discipline. Only the oyakata above him. Totally different situation.

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44 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

We should remember that Turbold also came into ozumo as makushita tsukedashi, so he was automatically heya-gashira (number one deshi) the second he arrived. He was literally untouchable by his fellow trainees in terms of hazing and discipline. Only the oyakata above him. Totally different situation.

I wouldn't say "automatically", as there are plenty of heya with sekitori, and would suggest "immediately", but the point stands.

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40 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I wouldn't say "automatically", as there are plenty of heya with sekitori, and would suggest "immediately", but the point stands.

He means specifically at Nishikido-beya. Mitoryu joined as the highest-ranked rikishi.

Edited by Eikokurai

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Most of you are implying in comparing to Turbold, if the Canadian dude was any good (or progressed quickly to a high ranked rikishi), he'd be still around.   Teammates would not likely to bully a highly talented player in most sports teams (heyas in this case).   If he rose quickly with a series of 6-1 or 7-0 records, who'd mess with him?  He's a big white dude to begin with.   

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2 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

He means specifically at Nishikido-beya. Mitoryu joined as the highest-ranked rikishi.

Correct. By joining that particular heya, he immediately became the top-ranked rikishi there. Whether or not he would or did use his right of rank to give orders and mete out punishment when and where he wished is anyone's guess. But he was in an extremely strong position right from the start. And has been pointed out, for all intents and purposes linguistically and culturally adapted. Stacked odds versus long odds. Small wonder.

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11 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Most of you are implying in comparing to Turbold, if the Canadian dude was any good (or progressed quickly to a high ranked rikishi), he'd be still around.   Teammates would not likely to bully a highly talented player in most sports teams (heyas in this case).   If he rose quickly with a series of 6-1 or 7-0 records, who'd mess with him?  He's a big white dude to begin with.   

It somehow comes off as you being totally OK with bullying people just because they don't go up quickly enough. Might just be my imagination, I hope so, if I'm wrong then I'm truly sorry for misinterpreting your intent.

In general, every person is different and heyas pretty much as well. Takanoyama and Amuuru took quite long way up and if I take away from Takanoyama's interviews, he never complained and accepted harsh treatment he was sometimes subjected to as given, but then the treatment in his heya could have been quite different (meaning easier) to Nishikido. And then there is Masutoo, Orora and possibly others I'm forgetting, and it doesn't seem like they've had such issues. Surely we don't see into their heads and hearts, and we'll never know what lead to The incident, but with this heya having such rare aftermath of Brodi leaving I'm willing to bet on Nishikido-beya being a bad environment, weird stories about oyakata and a load of dismissals due to bad behaviour included.

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1 hour ago, maorencze said:

It somehow comes off as you being totally OK with bullying people just because they don't go up quickly enough. Might just be my imagination, I hope so, if I'm wrong then I'm truly sorry for misinterpreting your intent.

I detest bullying in any environment.   I was just reinterpreting (and agreeing) what the previous posters implied.  That is, Turbold wouldn't have been bullied b/c he was a top dog in his beya.  I understand some here are big fan of Homa and can/will react to a post that they see as an attack on Homa's talent, character, etc..   Oh, well.

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