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Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2016 ** (SPOILERS)

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9 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

Here's the official list of various win totals for all tournaments since 1990:

FMzrZrT.png

Since 1990 (161 tournaments), only 43% of the tournament winners got by with 13 wins or less.

Interesting to note is that 2009 was the hardest year to win a tournment in with 2014 being the second hardest, while 1999, 2001-2004 were the easiest years to win tournaments in. Makes sense with the changing of the guard in those years from Akebono/Takanohana/Musashimaru to Asashoryu.

Yeah not surprised at all, largely skewed in the last 30 basho (5 years) where only 27% of the basho where won with 13 wins or less.. I'm guessing if you remove those 5 years you get 50/50 between the 13 and less and the 14 and more for the previous 130...

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While I totally get the chokezuna label for Kise I don't really think it applies this basho unless you mean the 2 early losses which came at the hands of someone who was hot at the time (Endo) and someone who had a great basho (Shodai). He was never really in it to choke. Even after beating Kakuryu he needed some help to even get in a playoff at 13-2 which given Harumafuji and Kak's record at that point was not likely to happen, and didn't. His loss to Tochinoshin was no choke. He fought bitterly the whole time. It was IMO the best match Tochi has ever fought and without a failing mawashi Kise might still have won. Yes, he got a solo jun-yusho but he backed into that with the other contenders doing even worse than he did the final 5 matches. Only he and Kakuryu went 4-1 for the last 5. That isn't choking. 

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5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Regarding Kisenosato's tsuna run, the judging department is saying this:

Nishonoseki head of the department:"  A high-level yusho will give him the promotion. He had the most wins in a year and beat all three Yokozunae this basho. A zensho may put us in a mood to promote him."

Deputy Hakkaku : "It depends on the content.."

 

Let the merriment begin.

I think any Yusho and he gets the promotion. Kise has been operating at a Yokozuna level in every stat except for winning a yusho for a long time now. I expect once he gets that stat too he will be made Yokozuna.

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2 hours ago, McBugger said:

Look at Kisenosato's record in the last 4 days of honbasho, from when he first became Ozeki up until now. It's consistently at about .500. (That is, he has about as many wins as losses). Only once has he won all of his 4 last bouts. 

That is a classic choker's symptom. I should know that; my choking in tournament pool is second to none. When the finish line is in sight, no matter what his record is, he collapses to a run of the mill Ozeki, which is still very good, but not as good as most people seem to expect. 

Doesn't Ozeki usually fight top ranked rikishi in the last 4 days, like Yokozuna & fellow Ozeki?   However, I agree that Kise's 12 junyusho vs 0 yusho speaks loud for his being a choker.   It's mental.    One thing though, for those who finally overcome and win, seems to win in bunches.   

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57 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I think any Yusho and he gets the promotion. Kise has been operating at a Yokozuna level in every stat except for winning a yusho for a long time now. I expect once he gets that stat too he will be made Yokozuna.

The kyokai doesn't want a weak yokozuna. Being a yokozuna is quite different from being an ozeki. A 13-win yusho next basho will not do. At least a 14-win yusho including beating all yokozuna. 

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One other "problem" Kisenosato has now is that the Yokozuna that people tend to think might not be as strong as him just won the Yusho with 14 wins.  They're about back to even in my eyes after this tournament, with Kakuyru very slightly ahead.  Kisenosato definitely needs a strong tournament win to get promoted after these last two tournaments where he's just been a good Ozeki.  He definitely needs 14 wins, and I personally wouldn't be satisfied promoting him unless he had 15 given that his 13-win tournaments are moving further into the past.

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

One other "problem" Kisenosato has now is that the Yokozuna that people tend to think might not be as strong as him just won the Yusho with 14 wins.  They're about back to even in my eyes after this tournament, with Kakuyru very slightly ahead.  Kisenosato definitely needs a strong tournament win to get promoted after these last two tournaments where he's just been a good Ozeki.  He definitely needs 14 wins, and I personally wouldn't be satisfied promoting him unless he had 15 given that his 13-win tournaments are moving further into the past.

In my book, an Yusho would be enough given his solid performance as Ozeki.  But I am not in the committee :-(.

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Without weighing in on Kisenosato's tendency to "choke", I noticed that in this tournament, Kise never faced fellow Ozeki, Kotoshogiku, nor did he face either Sekiwake. Takayasu or Okinoumi.  Does that not seem odd?  All three Yokozunas were required to ("had the opportunity to") fight both Sekiwakes, not to mention Kotoshogiku.  Why was Kise exempt?

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7 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Without weighing in on Kisenosato's tendency to "choke", I noticed that in this tournament, Kise never faced fellow Ozeki, Kotoshogiku, nor did he face either Sekiwake. Takayasu or Okinoumi.  Does that not seem odd?  All three Yokozunas were required to ("had the opportunity to") fight both Sekiwakes, not to mention Kotoshogiku.  Why was Kise exempt?

Takayasu is in the same stable as Kisenosato, so they won't ever face each other in a regulation match (maybe in playoffs).  Normally Kisenosato would have faced Kotoshogiku on senshuraku, but the schedulers decided that with Kotoshogiku heavily MK already there was no point to it and scheduled them both against maegashira in contention for sanyaku.  They also had previously decided to skip Kisenosato's fight with Okinoumi for unclear reasons.  Okinoumi had 8 losses at the time, but that still meant he could have stayed in sanyaku if he had won the rest.  The schedulers presumably thought he wouldn't and was effectively out of contention for sanyaku, so Kisenosato faced someone else who actually was seriously in contention (and will likely get a spot), Tochinoshin.  Lately they have not been shy at deciding to not hold certain intrasanyaku matches if only one of the rikishi is in contention for sanyaku on the next banzuke.

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Kisenosato and Takayasu are stable mates.  He did not face either Kotoshogiku and Okinoumi because they had losing records.

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1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

In my book, an Yusho would be enough given his solid performance as Ozeki.  But I am not in the committee :-(.

It's only been solid over the last three tournaments, not truly Yokozuna worthy.  The 13-13-12 would probably have gotten the nod if there was a yusho in there, but there wasn't.  Without those 13s in his recent history, he's just a good Ozeki.  They want clear dominance in 2 straight tournaments, or a long continuous history of getting 12-13 wins every single tournament (and a yusho somewhere in there).  His 10 in Aki just isn't good enough to make a case for Yokozuna without some seriously impressive capstone, which to me must be a zensho.

Edited by Gurowake

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20 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

It's only been solid over the last three tournaments, not truly Yokozuna worthy.  The 13-13-12 would probably have gotten the nod if there was a yusho in there, but there wasn't.  Without those 13s in his recent history, he's just a good Ozeki.  They want clear dominance in 2 straight tournaments, or a long continuous history of getting 12-13 wins every single tournament (and a yusho somewhere in there).  His 10 in Aki just isn't good enough to make a case for Yokozuna without some seriously impressive capstone, which to me must be a zensho.

2 yusho in a row in any style is probably Kise's best bet to Yokozuna.

Edited by robnplunder

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If Kise gets a yusho he then gets the rope. One yusho will do it for him

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15 hours ago, Benihana said:

Bushido also teaches honor and justice. If your opponent fought with honor, treat him appropriate.

Speaking of Bushido- I'm not sure if this bout on day 14 has already been mentioned but this is pure bastardry from Sato with this nasty dame oshi on our little mate Ura. Shockingly bad sportsmanship and arrogance from someone so young. I hope Takanohana gives him more than a talking to for this. 

 

Ura Vs Sato Day 14 Kyushu basho

Edited by Johnofuji
correct a mistake
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9 minutes ago, Johnofuji said:

Speaking of Bushido- I'm not sure if it's this bout on day 14 has already been mentioned but this is pure bastardry from Sato with this nasty dame oshi on our little mate Ura. Shockingly bad sportsmanship and arrogance from someone so young. I hope Takanohana gives him more than a talking to for this. 

 

Ura Vs Sato Day 14 Kyushu basho

No, i think most of us haven't seen it yet, because there are no links for day 14 in the db.

Outrageous, i want to bitchslap that little shit.

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4 hours ago, Johnofuji said:

Speaking of Bushido- I'm not sure if this bout on day 14 has already been mentioned but this is pure bastardry from Sato with this nasty dame oshi on our little mate Ura. Shockingly bad sportsmanship and arrogance from someone so young. I hope Takanohana gives him more than a talking to for this. 

 

Ura Vs Sato Day 14 Kyushu basho

Wow Sato...

Next basho I hope he got a 0-15 on his makuuchi debut, then injured his Achilles tendon on senshuraku, and fall way down to sandanme where he yo-yoed between makushita and sandanme for the next 8 years before retiring prematurely.

I don't care if I sounded like a horrible person. That dame-oshi was dangerous and could easily do so much more damage than what has transpired.

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5 hours ago, Johnofuji said:

Speaking of Bushido- I'm not sure if this bout on day 14 has already been mentioned but this is pure bastardry from Sato with this nasty dame oshi on our little mate Ura. Shockingly bad sportsmanship and arrogance from someone so young. I hope Takanohana gives him more than a talking to for this. 

 

Ura Vs Sato Day 14 Kyushu basho

 

That was bad.  I hope it was one time thing from Sato.  If he keeps that up, his sumo life will be hard.  He will get pushed around in return and he's not a big guy.

Edited by robnplunder

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Sato-Ura is looking to shape up as a long time rivalry. Sato has been watching Ura get the acclaim while Sato has been putting up the actual winning numbers. Expect this to go on a long time and in the end, no matter how far Ura goes, Sato will be his Achilles heel.

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The YDC want a Japanese Yokozuna, bad. I still say if Kise wins a yusho, any yusho, he will be immediately promoted. His record over the past year, sans yusho, screams Yokozuna. It will be very easy to justify the promotion. But they won't promote without that 1 yusho win,  If Kise is 10-0 at the start of January 2017 basho you can count on the media being wall to wall Yokozuna talk for Kise.

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16 hours ago, Dapeng said:

Being a yokozuna is quite different from being an ozeki.

In many ways, yes, but in terms of overall results it's not that different, as Harumafuji and Kakuryu clearly demonstrate.

A yokozuna is just an ozeki who's done the necessary yusho-wise. After that all he has to do is turn in consistent ozeki numbers.

Kise is another good example, with his overall record for 2016 outstripping all three yokozuna.

Of course the yokozuna have managed 4 yusho between them this year, but the ozeki have managed 2. That's a trend I can see continuing now the era of Hakuho dominance has ended, and that's how it should be: ozeki contending for the yusho each time.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Johnofuji said:

Speaking of Bushido- I'm not sure if this bout on day 14 has already been mentioned but this is pure bastardry from Sato with this nasty dame oshi on our little mate Ura. Shockingly bad sportsmanship and arrogance from someone so young. I hope Takanohana gives him more than a talking to for this. 

 

Ura Vs Sato Day 14 Kyushu basho

Do you have a link to Sato vs Osunaarashi?

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1 hour ago, d_golem said:

Wow Sato...

Next basho I hope he got a 0-15 on his makuuchi debut, then injured his Achilles tendon on senshuraku, and fall way down to sandanme where he yo-yoed between makushita and sandanme for the next 8 years before retiring prematurely.

I don't care if I sounded like a horrible person. That dame-oshi was dangerous and could easily do so much more damage than what has transpired.

Yes, you sound like a horrible person and don't know what you are talking about.

If someone is afraid to fall from the dohyo he should not become a rikishi, or act like Hattorizakura. Otherwise there is always the risk of falling. It is not like Sato stopped and then all of a sudden pushed Ura down. It was all in the motion. A rikishi should not stop unless he is totally sure that he has won. If Sato was not sure, he did the right thing. And then there is this "in dubio pre reo" thing, which sadly seems to be irrelevant on the internet.

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Hmmm...it didn't look that bad to me. Ura is also a rikishi with a reputation for surviving perilous situations, so I can understand why Sato would want to follow through and be sure he was out.

 

Edited by Katooshu

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37 minutes ago, Chiyozakura said:

Yes, you sound like a horrible person and don't know what you are talking about.

If someone is afraid to fall from the dohyo he should not become a rikishi, or act like Hattorizakura. Otherwise there is always the risk of falling. It is not like Sato stopped and then all of a sudden pushed Ura down. It was all in the motion. A rikishi should not stop unless he is totally sure that he has won. If Sato was not sure, he did the right thing. And then there is this "in dubio pre reo" thing, which sadly seems to be irrelevant on the internet.

Horrible person I am, and I encourage you to watch the video again, slo-mo replay from 3:50-3:51 and tell me straight that Sato didn't know 100% Ura has stepped off the dohyo. Sato looked straight down at Ura's feet which were on the straight outside bales, and still he took another step forward until his own toes touched the circular bales, and then proceeded to shove him. Sato knew exactly what he was doing and he did it out of spite, plain and simple. No "dubio" there.

I take my hat off to Ura that despite knowing what has been done to him and fully aware what could have happened to his body (look at how hard his left shin hitting the corner of the dohyo, I mean just the slightest difference in angle could have lead to a fracture or a break), he still acted like a class rikishi and bowed, very properly. No sidelong glares, no "look", no nothing.

I look very much forward to their future rivalry, and though I had also previously cheered for Sato, I know now who I will definitely be cheering for when they meet again.

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