Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2016 ** (SPOILERS)

[hamcornheinz 839]

2 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

To whoever said boxing gloves attenuate the impact: I really don’t think so. Are there more KOs in boxing or MMA? Boxing gloves are made to KO people rather than make them bleed and keep them awake, as normal fists would do.

Well most MMA fights go to the ground, so it's apples and oranges. Boxing gloves spread out the impact over a greater amount of space, which actually increases brain damage but lessens the knockout power of any given punch. Boxers punch much, much harder than MMA fighters, and also, a knockout punch is also usually an unseen punch, boxers being more trained, can see more punches than MMA fighters. So it's really apples and oranges. 

[Benihana 1,901]

28 minutes ago, Adil said:

Seconded. I don't remember his henka against Terunofuji; as ryafuji pointed out, it was Kisenosato against whom he henkaed in the deciding match for his first yokozuna yusho. However, the henka didn't lead to a direct victory in that match. He executed a beautiful move at the tawara to win. I do remember flying into a rage when he did his two henkas against Kisenosato (there was a matta) because I felt (as I still feel) that coupled with his henka against Myogiryu Tochiozan in that basho (which did lead to a direct victory), it did something in my eyes to take the joy out of the occasion. At least I can enjoy this one!

No blame, was curious, wanted to see it and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/jAQ2f50CMtc?autoplay=1

Edited November 26, 2016 by Benihana

[Dapeng 232]

16 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

So, Goeidou just needs 4 wins tomorrow to keep his tsuna hopes alive? It's doable, right?

Sure. Kise is much better because he only needs 2 wins.

[ALAKTORN 346]

43 minutes ago, hamcornheinz said:

Well most MMA fights go to the ground, so it's apples and oranges. Boxing gloves spread out the impact over a greater amount of space, which actually increases brain damage but lessens the knockout power of any given punch. Boxers punch much, much harder than MMA fighters, and also, a knockout punch is also usually an unseen punch, boxers being more trained, can see more punches than MMA fighters. So it's really apples and oranges. 

I didn’t know what else to compare it to and was aware it was a terrible comparison. My conclusion doesn’t change though: boxing gloves are made to KO people. You would never see as many KOs in boxing if they didn’t use gloves. The area of impact of knuckles doesn’t cause concussions, it causes cuts and bruises. Palm strikes knock out better than punches.

Edited November 26, 2016 by ALAKTORN

[Dwale 419]

2 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

To whoever said boxing gloves attenuate the impact: I really don’t think so. Are there more KOs in boxing or MMA? Boxing gloves are made to KO people rather than make them bleed and keep them awake, as normal fists would do.

Boxing gloves as we think of them now were introduced to protect the fighters' hands and faces during bouts, and were made mandatory in John Graham Chambers' "Marquess of Queensberry Rules" for this very reason. That is their purpose; they are not there to increase knockouts (although they have that effect indirectly by allowing fighters to throw harder and more often at the head).

[chishafuwaku 469]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Not one single Makuuchi/Juryo exchange match the whole basho. Not even on senshuraku. When did that last happen??

Hatsu 1990

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&rank1=m&rank2=j&offset=450

chishafuwaku

[Adil 232]

1 hour ago, Benihana said:

No blame, was curious, wanted to see it and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/jAQ2f50CMtc?autoplay=1

Thanks. I got it mixed up: He did it AFTER his loss against Myogiryu.

[Rocks 1,807]

5 hours ago, Dwale said:

Uh, ok? So, let's grant you this for the purposes of the discussion: a missed slap now becomes a hit. So what? It's still a tactic to distract/annoy/enrage one's opponent rather than a winning technique of itself. And unless you happen to know exactly what kind of tape that is and what its physical properties are, with references cited, you can drop that "harder/tougher than human skin" portion of your argument. Even if we grant that, I'm not convinced it would make much of a difference.

But let's get back to your original assertion, that Kotoyuki has effectively armed himself in this unarmed combat sport. "Two little clubs" is what you said. Then, it follows logically (and unavoidably) that if you untaped Kotoyuki's hands and sent him into this basho with two little clubs instead, his record would be the same. This is an absurd conclusion. Kotoyuki's wins generally come through shoving his opponent out of the ring, not from blunt trauma to the head (today's match excepted).

You know very well that the level of competition in makuuchi is fierce. You know also that these rikishi watch either like hawks. If Kotoyuki's tape really gave him an edge, then either everybody would do it, or it would be banned. 

If you want to continue spinning your wheels on this futile defense, be my guest. I'm moving on.

Ah, okay. I have no clue what this load of malarkey is. I just made a point. That's it. This is how his fingers are taped, with boxer/sports  tape. And  frankly it looked even heavier yesterday and extended into the palms. This is from Haru 2016.

Is it harder than skin? Does it make more of an impact? Yes, it does. Why do you think it is used to protect the skin? It's harder. Especially when it's built up.This ain't friggin' rocket science. I never claimed Kotoyuki does this to gain an advantage or as part of a technique so I have no clue why you even mention this. I said his taping up that much amounts to 2 little clubs. Not that he intends to use it in such a manner. That doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact when he does. And almost everybody does tape their fingers. You see them stripping it off their fingers as they leave. The difference is they don't generally tape all 4 together. Maybe it should be banned. 

 

"If you want to continue spinning your wheels on this futile defense, be my guest. I'm moving on."

What the heck is this garbage? You declare yourself a winner and "move on"? Be my guest. It doesn't make you any less wrong.

 

I also don't know what all this stuff is later about boxing gloves. He isn't padding, He's taping up which is what they do to boxer's hand BEFORE they glove up. Again. To make them harder and tougher. Kotoyuki is probably doing this for protection but he's inadvertently making his hands more of an offensive weapon.

 

And thanks to Akinomaki we have a pic from yesterday:

Edited November 26, 2016 by Rocks

[Pitinosato 117]

Was nobody else surprised that there was a rematch Shodai-Ishiura ?

They had to stop the first Bout.

Ishiuras hand clearly touched the sand (at 6:57 Youtube Kintamayama)

Even in the monoii they didn't consider that 

[Asojima 2,870]

6 minutes ago, Pitinosato said:

Was nobody else surprised that there was a rematch Shodai-Ishiura ?

 

Simultaneous dead bodies and almost simultaneous hits.  Good Call.

[Benihana 1,901]

33 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Why do you think it is used to protect the skin?

Never heard it's used for skin-protection. Only know it for fixating (already injured) fingers so they don't get bent. His fingers are more prone to injury by his fighting style, so i assume he injured some fingers and just tries to protect them like volleyball players do. Boxers don't tape their fingers if not injured. No offense intended, just pointing that out.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Benihana

[Rocks 1,807]

No boxers don't tape their fingers, they tape their knuckles, thumbs and wrists. They're fingers are wrapped under so aren't being used or even exposed as they are inside a glove. That wasn't the point. The point was Kotoyuki was getting the same effect with his fingers as boxers do with their knuckles by taping in such a manner in one piece along with building up his wrist and thumbs.. Again i don't know or even think that is his intent. And yes tape prevents you skin from splitting. By holding it together and supporting it. 

[Dwale 419]

Sound and fury. You know the rest, I trust.

[Benihana 1,901]

32 minutes ago, Rocks said:

The point was Kotoyuki was getting the same effect with his fingers as boxers do with their knuckles by taping in such a manner in one piece along with building up his wrist and thumbs.. Again i don't know or even think that is his intent. 

I understand your point, but i can assure you, that he doesn't get the same effect. It's a physically impossible. Any force distributed by his fingers only and strong enough to have any effect more than annoyance, would snap his fingers onto the back of his hand. Or his whole hand onto his lower arm. Whichever breaks first. There is no way to prevent that from happening using tape only.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Benihana

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

1 hour ago, Benihana said:

Never heard it's used for skin-protection. Only know it for fixating (already injured) fingers so they don't get bent. His fingers are more prone to injury by his fighting style, so i assume he injured some fingers and just tries to protect them like volleyball players do. Boxers don't tape their fingers if not injured. No offense intended, just pointing that out.

They once said about Chiyotaikai's taped-together fingers that he does it to prevent getting caught in the aite's nostrils. Might as well be an urban legend, though.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Jakusotsu

[Rocks 1,807]

Is it as effective as taping the knuckles? No, I didn't say that it did. I said it made the fingers a much more effective offensive weapon. And it would take a lot less force than necessary to make being slapped with the fingers, especially taped together in one mass, way more than annoying without resulting in broken bones. The heavily taped thumbs and wrists also provide more support which allows more force to be applied. They don't have the referee inspect a taping job and sign off on it prior to gloving up at a boxing match for no reason. Yes, it makes sure they haven't inserted dangerous objects into the glove or taping job. But an excessive amount of taping gives a very distinct advantage. The taping is supposed to be enough to prevent injury, no more.  Build it up too much and it allows harder blows more often.

Kotoyuki's taping job is excessive. The finger are not only taped to to each other another layer of tape is added over that to bring all for together into one surface. His wrists and thumbs are built up to boxing levels. It is way more than other rikishi use. Now maybe at some point he had an injury which they allowed such taping for. I don't know.  But it;s gotten heavier over time and frankly I think it's time they told him to cut back to levels normal rikishi use.

[rzombie1988 157]

4 hours ago, Adil said:

Seconded. I don't remember his henka against Terunofuji; as ryafuji pointed out, it was Kisenosato against whom he henkaed in the deciding match for his first yokozuna yusho. However, the henka didn't lead to a direct victory in that match. He executed a beautiful move at the tawara to win. I do remember flying into a rage when he did his two henkas against Kisenosato (there was a matta) because I felt (as I still feel) that coupled with his henka against Myogiryu in that basho (which did lead to a direct victory), it did something in my eyes to take the joy out of the occasion. At least I can enjoy this one!

 

Looks like I just wrote the wrong name down. But not only did he henka once, he did it again when they had to re-do the tachi-ai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWbeQJ0xO2k&t=10m29s

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by rzombie1988

[rzombie1988 157]

4 hours ago, ryafuji said:

1. It was Kisenosato who he henka'd; the bout that actually decided the yusho, his playoff win over Terunofuji, was straight-up sumo. 

2. It doesn't invalidate his 11 other wins in the tournament; he still had the best record. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWbeQJ0xO2k&t=10m29s

Still pretty cheap to do and it will always put an * near that win for me. Maybe it should be ** since he did it twice.

 

[Bumpkin 438]

Does anyone think J13w Sadanofuji (2-12) will retire after his match on Sunday.  He will be 32 on Christmas Day.  He has been a sekitori for 37 consecutive tournaments.  He has never missed a match.  I wish him all the best.

[Highway 46]

Congrats to Kakuryu.....for a long time I didn't really like him much, but he has grown on me, always cool as a cucumber no matter what happens. 3 yokozuna, but all very different flavors.

[Sumozumo 240]

3 hours ago, Rocks said:

 

Is it harder than skin?

 

It really depends on the condition of the skin, if its calloused heavily then sports tape is much softer.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Just a couple of observations on Day 14's action:

In Bout 17, Mitakeumi sent Okinoumi stumbling forward out into the corner.  The kimarite was called as "tsukiotoshi", which by definition (i.e., 落とし otoshi) means dropping to the ground; but Okinoumi did not fall at any point.  Is there a better kimarite call for what happened, or does the JSA need to add a new kimarite to the list?

Hakuho made short work of Harumafuji in the penultimate bout.  Haru seemed to be experiencing pain in his left elbow after the bout, but the arm bar (if any) that Hakuho applied was on Haru's right elbow.  Harumafuji seems to be having issues with both ankles and both elbows.  That doesn't bode well for his future.  Kakuryu, on the other hand, has done well to remain "relatively" injury free.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Amamaniac
typo

[Asashosakari 18,783]

I have no opinion on whether there should be a different kimarite for this specific thing, but tsukiotoshi has been the choice for these "rikishi gets sent tumbling in a random direction by a glancing blow" outcomes pretty much ever since I started paying closer attention to kimarite choices over a decade ago. Actually dropping to the ground has always been optional, much like hands-on-the-mawashi isn't really required for yorikiri despite what the common definition says.

In the end, many of these particular tsukiotoshi could well be reclassified as non-winning techniques if you wanted to be strict about it - and I suspect the Kyokai really doesn't want dozens of bouts per basho where the loser lost it rather than the winner winning it, so tsukiotoshi gets used to pretend that they were offensive victories. After all, many cases of obvious slipping also get called hikiotoshi etc. rather than tsukihiza or koshikudake.

[hamcornheinz 839]

5 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

I didn’t know what else to compare it to and was aware it was a terrible comparison. My conclusion doesn’t change though: boxing gloves are made to KO people. You would never see as many KOs in boxing if they didn’t use gloves. The area of impact of knuckles doesn’t cause concussions, it causes cuts and bruises. Palm strikes knock out better than punches.

Ok, I don't really know either way. The boxing gloves add weight, but at the same time distribute the weight over a greater area. I think the boxing gloves really were designed to protect the boxer's hand however, Mike Tyson broke his fingers quite a few times punching people without gloves in street fights. 

[robnplunder 974]

21 hours ago, Rocks said:

yes, I think Ishiura got robbed there but I think they did that because he was only in that position by pure luck. Shodai dominated the match.

+1 on Ishiura getting robbed.   Win is a win, no pure luck about it, or should the luck decide the outcome.