Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2016 ** (SPOILERS)

[Dapeng 232]

5 hours ago, Rocks said:

Hakuho looked a lot more focused today. I thought Harumafuji would beat him easily. Wow.

Hakuho did a good job. He saw Kise won, thus his win over Haru gave Kise a slim hope of yusho-playoff on day-15. However this hope lasted only minutes and was shattered by Kaku's win......

Hakuho also avoided making his worst yokozuna  record of less than 10 wins.

[Morty 1,480]

49 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Actually there is something about this I have wondered about for awhile. Kotoyuki started taping up his fingers, due to injury I think, and it's gotten progressively more wrapping to the point now that both sets of fingers are wrapped into one on each hand. He basically has 2 boxing mitts at this point. Normally when they hit with their hands it has to be open so the fingers splay softening the blow. In this case Kotoyuki has what amounts to 2 little clubs. They really should make him stop that type of wrapping of his hands.

He knocked Hidenoumi out with a palm strike flush on the chin. It was the heel of his palm - nothing to do with tape

 

[Fukurou 534]

24 minutes ago, Morty said:

He knocked Hidenoumi out with a palm strike flush on the chin. It was the heel of his palm - nothing to do with tape

 

If Hakuho is injured, as some have suggested, I'm a bit surprised he hasn't done more of this sort of thing. It's in his history to do those elbow strikes to the jaw at the taichiai - was it Myogiryu who ended up absolutely out on his feet?  (only problem - I don't remember if he was injured when he was doing that to people, or if he was just bored and showing off)

[Harry 67]

22 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

If Hakuho is injured, as some have suggested, I'm a bit surprised he hasn't done more of this sort of thing. It's in his history to do those elbow strikes to the jaw at the taichiai - was it Myogiryu who ended up absolutely out on his feet?  (only problem - I don't remember if he was injured when he was doing that to people, or if he was just bored and showing off)

Trouble is, Hakuho's elbows/arms seem to be what is injured this time so perhaps that isn't the best option for him right now. It works when his toe/foot are injured.

[Dwale 419]

39 minutes ago, Rocks said:

If you look at his hands there is no padding. It's just layers of tape. Making them much harder and tougher than just skin. Yes, most of the force is through the palm. But by taping the fingers together you've basically made a much bigger palm. The difference with this is that a palm blow which missed no becomes a hit. The hit on he did landing palm on side of lower part of chin resulted in those wrapped fingers contacting as one with the side of his face.

Uh, ok? So, let's grant you this for the purposes of the discussion: a missed slap now becomes a hit. So what? It's still a tactic to distract/annoy/enrage one's opponent rather than a winning technique of itself. And unless you happen to know exactly what kind of tape that is and what its physical properties are, with references cited, you can drop that "harder/tougher than human skin" portion of your argument. Even if we grant that, I'm not convinced it would make much of a difference.

But let's get back to your original assertion, that Kotoyuki has effectively armed himself in this unarmed combat sport. "Two little clubs" is what you said. Then, it follows logically (and unavoidably) that if you untaped Kotoyuki's hands and sent him into this basho with two little clubs instead, his record would be the same. This is an absurd conclusion. Kotoyuki's wins generally come through shoving his opponent out of the ring, not from blunt trauma to the head (today's match excepted).

You know very well that the level of competition in makuuchi is fierce. You know also that these rikishi watch either like hawks. If Kotoyuki's tape really gave him an edge, then either everybody would do it, or it would be banned. 

If you want to continue spinning your wheels on this futile defense, be my guest. I'm moving on.

[Benihana 1,901]

16 minutes ago, Dwale said:

Uh, ok? So, let's grant you this for the purposes of the discussion: a missed slap now becomes a hit. So what? It's still a tactic to distract/annoy/enrage one's opponent rather than a winning technique of itself. And unless you happen to know exactly what kind of tape that is and what its physical properties are, with references cited, you can drop that "harder/tougher than human skin" portion of your argument. Even if we grant that, I'm not convinced it would make much of a difference.

But let's get back to your original assertion, that Kotoyuki has effectively armed himself in this unarmed combat sport. "Two little clubs" is what you said. Then, it follows logically (and unavoidably) that if you untaped Kotoyuki's hands and sent him into this basho with two little clubs instead, his record would be the same. This is an absurd conclusion. Kotoyuki's wins generally come through shoving his opponent out of the ring, not from blunt trauma to the head (today's match excepted).

You know very well that the level of competition in makuuchi is fierce. You know also that these rikishi watch either like hawks. If Kotoyuki's tape really gave him an edge, then either everybody would do it, or it would be banned. 

If you want to continue spinning your wheels on this futile defense, be my guest. I'm moving on.

<sarcasm> maybe he uses the tape to disguise his new brass palms </sarcasm>

[hamcornheinz 839]

On 16/11/2016 at 18:30, hamcornheinz said:

Predicting right now, that Kakuryu takes this one. 

 

[rzombie1988 157]

So Kakuryu wins his second title - I don't count his last one due to the henka on an injured Terunofuji.

I didn't think he did anything great but he was consistent enough and the rest of the field just wasn't. Hak's having injury issues. There's no real excuses for Harumafuji, Kise would find a way to lose a 14-0 basho going into the last day. Terunofuji was injured and Kotoshogiku is back to his old self. And uh Goeido just kind of showed he isn't Yokozuna material yet. We'll hopefully see a healthy Henkaho and Terunofuji next time around and see what happens.

Edited November 26, 2016 by rzombie1988

[luispereira 383]

congrats kakuryu! let's all remember this moment:

 

 

[ALAKTORN 346]

…Am I the only one who thought Tochinoshin–Gagamaru looked legit? Tochinoshin even put up resistance at the tawara.

To whoever said boxing gloves attenuate the impact: I really don’t think so. Are there more KOs in boxing or MMA? Boxing gloves are made to KO people rather than make them bleed and keep them awake, as normal fists would do.

[Harry 67]

21 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

…Am I the only one who thought Tochinoshin–Gagamaru looked legit? Tochinoshin even put up resistance at the tawara.

To whoever said boxing gloves attenuate the impact: I really don’t think so. Are there more KOs in boxing or MMA? Boxing gloves are made to KO people rather than make them bleed and keep them awake, as normal fists would do.

Indeed, boxing gloves are there to PROLONG the fight, not make it end more quickly. With bare knuckle boxing you get cut quickly which ends the fight that way rather than in a knockout.

[Kintamayama 44,345]

Hidenoumi probably out tomorrow. Went to the hospital, MRI. "My right ankle and right toe are very painful," he said. He could hardly do the MRI.

[Sumozumo 240]

3 hours ago, Rocks said:

If you look at his hands there is no padding. It's just layers of tape. Making them much harder and tougher than just skin. Yes, most of the force is through the palm. But by taping the fingers together you've basically made a much bigger palm. The difference with this is that a palm blow which missed no becomes a hit. The hit on he did landing palm on side of lower part of chin resulted in those wrapped fingers contacting as one with the side of his face.

This takes literally 30 seconds for anyone to test out, try taping your fingers together and open palm striking anything with just the fingers. You're going to hurt yourself more than anything you are hitting. The power is all in the palm.

[Kintamayama 44,345]

Not one single Makuuchi/Juryo exchange match the whole basho. Not even on senshuraku. When did that last happen??

Edited November 26, 2016 by Kintamayama

[ryafuji 807]

Congratulations to Kakuryu. He hasn't had a great year but now he has his second yusho as a Yokozuna and is already guaranteed his best score since he got promoted. He's had some criticism round here (unfairly IMHO) that his promotion criteria were somehow too lenient and he's had a few injuries but this result should give him great confidence. Good for sumo to have three Yokozuna who are all regular yusho contenders. 

[Sakura 1,472]

This is a great video. 

I can see Goeido doing well. Something seems to be working for him. I also have the same feeling about Kakuryu. 

 

That's what I posted in a different thread. No idea how to quote across threads...

I didn't know whether he'd win the Yusho, but I saw him (Kakuryu) being there or there abouts. I don't know why I didn't pick him for RotoSumo

[ryafuji 807]

1 hour ago, rzombie1988 said:

So Kakuryu wins his second title - I don't count his last one due to the henka on an injured Terunofuji.

1. It was Kisenosato who he henka'd; the bout that actually decided the yusho, his playoff win over Terunofuji, was straight-up sumo. 

2. It doesn't invalidate his 11 other wins in the tournament; he still had the best record. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by ryafuji

[Shikona 139]

It was a fluke move where Kotoyuki caught him with the heel of the hand right on the button.  Fingers taped or loose would have made no difference.  Boxing gloves are used to protect the hands (else they would be breaking fingers constantly), not cushion the blows.  A knockout is due to the sudden jarring of the brain; how it feels on the face doesn't change that.

[Shikona 139]

Is this the first time the Henkamafuji maneuver has failed?  Hak seemed to anticipate well, and when Harumafuji lunged from the side, swiveled perfectly to turn the tables.  Since Ishiura can also do that maneuver, also stepping to the left, when he faces Harumafuji there is potential for an amusing little do-si-do as they both go sliding by.

[Benihana 1,901]

38 minutes ago, Shikona said:

Is this the first time the Henkamafuji maneuver has failed?  Hak seemed to anticipate well, and when Harumafuji lunged from the side, swiveled perfectly to turn the tables.  Since Ishiura can also do that maneuver, also stepping to the left, when he faces Harumafuji there is potential for an amusing little do-si-do as they both go sliding by.

And don't forget Mitakeumi. He didn't win in the end, but he spoiled the Harumafuji non-henka®.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/rpQxRoFaEo4?start=1490&autoplay=1

Edited November 26, 2016 by Benihana

[Kintamayama 44,345]

12 minutes ago, Shikona said:

Is this the first time the Henkamafuji maneuver has failed? 

It's the Harumafuji non-henka. A world in its own.

[Adil 232]

14 minutes ago, Shikona said:

Is this the first time the Henkamafuji maneuver has failed?  Hak seemed to anticipate well, and when Harumafuji lunged from the side, swiveled perfectly to turn the tables...

I was waiting to finish my supper to make the very same point: Harumafuji was going for his 'Henka/Not a henka' there. And it's definitely not the first time that it has failed, as Benihana pointed out. Off the top of my head, I remember it failing against Sadanoumi (in a torinaoshi) and Aoiyama in the past.

[Adil 232]

2 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

So Kakuryu wins his second title - I don't count his last one due to the henka on an injured Terunofuji.

Seconded. I don't remember his henka against Terunofuji; as ryafuji pointed out, it was Kisenosato against whom he henkaed in the deciding match for his first yokozuna yusho. However, the henka didn't lead to a direct victory in that match. He executed a beautiful move at the tawara to win. I do remember flying into a rage when he did his two henkas against Kisenosato (there was a matta) because I felt (as I still feel) that coupled with his henka against Myogiryu in that basho (which did lead to a direct victory), it did something in my eyes to take the joy out of the occasion. At least I can enjoy this one!

 

[Adil 232]

With the kind permission of the good people here, just one last point regarding the dreaded H word. After Kakuryu's first yokozuna yusho henkas, I have seen people doing henkas that I never ever expected: Hakuho (multiple times), Tochinoshin, Kisenosato (against Kotoshogiku) ... Let's not get into a discussion about Harumafuji, whose move has been discussed ad nauseam (about whether or not it was a henka, the second most discussed point after any henka after the obligatory "I'm totally fine / not fine with henkas."). So perhaps I should forgive Kakuryu. I know he has been losing a lot of sleep over my disapproval.

       

Edited November 26, 2016 by Adil

[Benevolance 2,478]

So, Goeidou just needs 4 wins tomorrow to keep his tsuna hopes alive? It's doable, right?