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Kintamayama

Get yer hands down-Kyushu 2016

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10 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I have no idea if you mean the net sensors (whose detection capabilities are rather iffy) or Hawkeye (which works fine, but is hugely complex), but neither system is in any way alike to what you're proposing here. Not to mention that any sort of sensor system that could actually achieve what you're thinking would likely cost six- or seven-figure dollar amounts and probably would have to be built in locations that interfere with the five shimpan's eyelines to the dohyo.

I said sumo could borrow an idea used in tennis. I never said that it should copy it. Since a tennis court is considerably larger than a dohyo, the system shouldn't be nearly as complex. As for the cost, remember that this is a system to simply ensure that people's hands touch the ground--nothing more sophisticated than that. And I see no reason why its location would interfere with the shimpans' view of the dohyo. 

As mentioned before, a sensor of some sort embedded  under the area of the shikiri-sen should be adequate. The receiver could be a very simple device monitored by a judge. Although not at all necessary and far more expensive, it could also include displays showing the status to the audience. 

Edited by sekitori

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6 hours ago, Benihana said:

Rikishi must place all hands on the ground, a led-bar buried in the middle of the dohyo lights up. When the lights go out the bout starts. Just like F1. Two false starts means instant seppuku.

Rikish number will be decimated after a basho but "instant seppuku" penalty will fix this problem.   It's a bloody solution but will stop the hand waving that's been going on.  My favorite rikishi, Kotoyuki, will not likely make it to the next basho but seppuku brings exciting sudden death element to the tachi-hai.   :-)

Edited by robnplunder

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3 hours ago, sekitori said:

I said sumo could borrow an idea used in tennis. I never said that it should copy it.

Yes, and I responded that nothing of what you suggested actually has anything to do with what they're using in tennis these days. They did dabble in floor sensor technology at one point, but that was some 40 years ago - and they were putting it underneath a movable carpet, not trying to embed it in a (hand-built) huge block of clay on which people are trying to have a hand-to-hand fight while not wearing any shoes. Again, you guys who think this stuff is in any way "easy" don't quite seem to have a grasp of the technologies involved in all the automated tracking/reviewing solutions used in pro sports, especially when it comes to making them work with sufficient reliability. This stuff is complex and expensive.

One hint regarding the reliability aspect: Rikishi don't actually have to set up at the shikiri-sen for their tachiai...

 

3 hours ago, sekitori said:

And I see no reason why its location would interfere with the shimpans' view of the dohyo. 

It's because a technological solution that would actually work would likely have to involve a camera system aimed right at the dohyo at ground level, in order to track the downward movement of the rikishi's hands.

Edited by Asashosakari

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I am thinking about speed skating, which has explosive starts at the shorter distance races. A false start is very disruptive. Two false starts mean disqualification. ,
A false start in sumo is disruptive too. So much concentration goes in that fraction of a second! So an automatic loss at two false starts is not unreasonable.

Edited by orandashoho

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It seems the real problem is the "false start".  What about having the chief judge "start" the bout by pressing a button attached to an air horn, just like in swimming. First horn "ready", second horn "start". I know this would be a break with tradition but it would end the problem.  Two false starts would mean disqualification.

Edited by Bumpkin

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The fact that the rikishi can choose to start anywhere behind the starting lines makes any sort of technological system effectively impossible to implement.  Where one rikishi is putting his feet, another could put his hands.  You would have to have some manual control over what area of the ring you pointed the technology at, which means there's very little point in having any automatic technology anyway.  And even if you were looking at the right part of the dohyo, coming up with a test that was 100% reliable would be extremely difficult with all the variables there are.  Tennis and football sensors have a set line on which they are looking, and know exactly what they are looking for.  Baseball will get automatic calling of balls and strikes before anything like this happens.

Plus, it's not really a problem that's best solved with technology.  If it were a serious problem, they would have the gyoji be the one to start the fight, as is supposed to happen with amateur sumo.  Much simpler than technology.

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

And even if you were looking at the right part of the dohyo, coming up with a test that was 100% reliable would be extremely difficult with all the variables there are.

Especially since there would still be the whole synchronization issue. Just like with mono-ii that do/don't result in torinaoshi, there would need to be some prior agreement on (or definition of) what actually counts as both hands being down at the "same" time. And even if you could set an objective standard for that, you'd simply be moving the goalposts from what we have now - some rikishi would still try to exploit whatever wiggle room remains.

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Plus, it's not really a problem that's best solved with technology.  If it were a serious problem, they would have the gyoji be the one to start the fight, as is supposed to happen with amateur sumo.  Much simpler than technology.

Exactly. If the mutual consent tachiai is actually a severe problem, you simply abolish the mutual consent tachiai and replace it with an ordered start. Trying to regulate it through technology instead would be just a pointless and awkward half-measure. If you're going to scrap some bit of tradition, at least make sure the gains are worth it.

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I may be an old-fashioned muppet...but in sports steeped in tradition like this, I don't care about a little lack of precision.  It's sumo - and that's the way it should be.

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I think that the hands down thing perfectly represents sumo- you're trying to act gentlemanly and fair in front of the folks, all the while trying to screw with your opponent and get any advantage possible. The balance between dignity and competition. Also, it's not like the fling your arms down 60's tachiai hurt sumo any. It arguably made for longer/ more entertaining bouts. 

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I can't believe they didn't name the one guy who I think is the biggest culprit: Gaga "I-am-on-a-perpetual-ozeki-run" maru.

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18 minutes ago, Adil said:

I can't believe they didn't name the one guy who I think is the biggest culprit: Gaga "I-am-on-a-perpetual-ozeki-roll" maru.

 

Edited by Benihana

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On 10.11.2016 at 20:02, robnplunder said:

Is there a penalty for repeat offenders, like losing the match if mata is called on a rikishi twice in a row?   lIke double service faults in tennis?  like double fault start in track?   Without some form of harsh penalty, this wont't fixed.   

 

On 10.11.2016 at 22:49, Kintamayama said:

No.

Well, there is, according to the sumo glossary.

matta, premature start of torikumi without mutual understanding with aite, according to new rule (since 1998) rikishi who commits two matta loses torikumi automatically although this rule has not been used, see jikan-mae

Glossary outdated?

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On 11/11/2016 at 12:39, Benihana said:

Rikishi must place all hands on the ground, a led-bar buried in the middle of the dohyo lights up. When the lights go out the bout starts. Just like F1. Two false starts means instant seppuku.

Rikishi must wear bracelets that are magnetically attracted to the bar buried under the dohyo. When the light goes out electromagnets are switched off the bout can start.

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1 hour ago, Benihana said:

 

Well, there is, according to the sumo glossary.

matta, premature start of torikumi without mutual understanding with aite, according to new rule (since 1998) rikishi who commits two matta loses torikumi automatically although this rule has not been used, see jikan-mae

Glossary outdated?

As it says, "this rule has never been used". Which means, no, there is no such rule in reality. and if it was made in 1998, I don't remember that. Probably only on paper together with some others.. Okinoumi had two mattas today against Hakuhou. He didn't lose by DQ. He lost by losing.

I would file it right next to "bald rikishi must retire"  and "rikishi are eunuchs" ..

Edited by Kintamayama
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39 minutes ago, The Fat Cyclist said:

Rikishi must wear bracelets that are magnetically attracted to the bar buried under the dohyo. When the light goes out electromagnets are switched off the bout can start.

 I thought about something like that, too. But more like a steel wire attached to the back of the mawashi. :-D

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Just now, Kintamayama said:

As it says, "this rule has never been used". Which means, no, there is no such rule in reality. and if it was made in 1998, I don't remember that. Probably only on paper together with some others.. Okinoumi had two mattas today against Hakuhou. He didn't lose by DQ. He lost by losing.

I would file it right next to "bald rikishi must retire"  and "rikishi are eunuchs" 

There are many rules and laws which have never been applied, never the less they exist. That's the point.

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1 minute ago, Benihana said:

There are many rules and laws which have never been applied, never the less they exist. That's the point.

I disagree.  In sumo they are more like guidelines, not rules. Like a stop light in New Delhi. It's not like one day the judging department will try to implement this in the future, say like they said they would with the the "two hands down" rule, which is a more popular and well-known rule than the one we are discussing yet is seldom implemented. And the glossary could possibly be wrong, yes. I have never heard of this rule and would be happy to see it written somewhere . Oh wait, nobody has ever seen any sort of written "rules" for sumo other than the "inner circle". Can anyone point  me to an official Kyokai sanctioned rule book? With rules written down?

My take? Probably during a period of more than usual mattas, some grumpy old Oyakata from the Judging Department said they would disqualify someone for doing two straight mattas. And someone else decided it was a rule.

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24 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I disagree.  In sumo they are more like guidelines, not rules. Like a stop light in New Delhi. It's not like one day the judging department will try to implement this in the future, say like they said they would with the the "two hands down" rule, which is a more popular and well-known rule than the one we are discussing yet is seldom implemented. And the glossary could possibly be wrong, yes. I have never heard of this rule and would be happy to see it written somewhere . Oh wait, nobody has ever seen any sort of written "rules" for sumo other than the "inner circle". Can anyone point  me to an official Kyokai sanctioned rule book? With rules written down?

My take? Probably during a period of more than usual mattas, some grumpy old Oyakata from the Judging Department said they would disqualify someone for doing two straight mattas. And someone else decided it was a rule.

Let's settle on this: Abwarten und Tee trinken ;-)

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Every matta should result in a round of butskari keiko with Hakuho or Harumafuji during the following jungyo...

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Back in the 70's, some very heavy duty admonishments were administered on the 3rd matta.  It was rumored that the 4th matta was a disqualification,  but I never saw a 4th one.

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